Conventional clutch guys - where do you keep the release point in your pedal?

[moparedtn]

It also occurred to me to mention something I found interesting on the drive today...
Temps were in the low 70's, so Fred was running cool and happy as we tooled down the 4-lane
in the usual nonexistent traffic to the next town, about 20 miles or so.

Thing is - and I admit to this maybe being something imagined as much as it was real - but he
was actually feeling quite stout.
I noticed I didn't have to give him as much gas to cruise along at his usual 65mph sweet spot, just
shy of 3000RPMs - and he actually wanted to go more like 70!

Then it dawned on me....
The mechanics' description of the flywheel before ("scored all to hell") as well as the previous RAM
pressure plate ("it had lots of spots that weren't even making contact, looked like") came back to me
and I realized that old setup might even have been slipping at speed, ever so slightly ...
and the new one wasn't slipping now, meaning all the power was getting used??

Could be...but it sure was enjoyable, having a peppier ol' Fred tooling down the highway, ready to
get silly at the drop of the throttle.

 

[WileE]

I've actually had to weld/lenghten the fork rod, depending on the exact clutch I was installing. Mind you, some of this was a half century ago, but it depends on the non-stock setup being installed. I recall a Cleaning Lady clutch I had to do just that.

 

[moparedtn]

I've actually had to weld/lenghten the fork rod, depending on the exact clutch I was installing. Mind you, some of this was a half century ago, but it depends on the non-stock setup being installed. I recall a Cleaning Lady clutch I had to do just that.

Ok, I gotta ask - "cleaning lady clutch"??

 

[WileE]

Ok, I gotta ask - "cleaning lady clutch"??

Yeah... it was a brand , this was sometime in the 70's, and I recall the name simply because of the name. Anyone else ever do a Cleaning Lady clutch ? ( Someone else here gotta know this .... )

 

[padam]

Yeah... it was a brand , this was sometime in the 70's, and I recall the name simply because of the name. Anyone else ever do a Cleaning Lady clutch ? ( Someone else here gotta know this .... )

I’ve heard the term and thought it applied to a ceramic button paddle type disc

 

[moparwacko]

I was under the assumption (oh boy) it meant it was quick, cheap, and you didn't admit to doing it.

No disrespect to cleaning ladies....

 

[4406bbl]

Yeah... it was a brand , this was sometime in the 70's, and I recall the name simply because of the name. Anyone else ever do a Cleaning Lady clutch ? ( Someone else here gotta know this .... )

Oh ya the Ram cleaning lady, really popular with the Ford guys it seemed back in the 70s. I recall it being a 3 puck disc but could be wrong.

 

[4406bbl]

Sometimes it is hard to get the pedal height right/comfortable and not have the throwout bearing ride the fingers. The 70 and down b-bodies are the worst as the over center spring will not let the pedal up until the last inch, at least on the 440-6 and hemi cars. I like it lower and just make it a point to pull the pedal up with my toe when street driving. All my junk has always had the white over center spring and needle bearing pedal 6-bbl hemi stuff so 383 setup may not do that. Never had the problem with e-bodies. So in short I like it as low as possible and just high enough to get it in reverse without shutting the engine off. A good torque strap and mounts makes all the difference in how they shift and how low you can run the pedal. It stays consistent.

 

[moparedtn]

Sometimes it is hard to get the pedal height right/comfortable and not have the throwout bearing ride the fingers. The 70 and down b-bodies are the worst as the over center spring will not let the pedal up until the last inch, at least on the 440-6 and hemi cars. I like it lower and just make it a point to pull the pedal up with my toe when street driving. All my junk has always had the white over center spring and needle bearing pedal 6-bbl hemi stuff so 383 setup may not do that. Never had the problem with e-bodies. So in short I like it as low as possible and just high enough to get it in reverse without shutting the engine off. A good torque strap and mounts makes all the difference in how they shift and how low you can run the pedal. It stays consistent.

Yep to the toe pull-up bit; to be honest, that's probably what'll continue to happen here as well.
I hadn't heard that about the 440-6 and hemi cars before and since Fred is a true GTX (440), he's got the
same 11" clutch and 18 spline transmission, so I suppose he's in the same boat if true.

As it sits now, the pedal is at about 1/4 up in the swing (I'm used to about halfway), so I guess that means
its' got the 3/4 rest of the way swing for future wear.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

In my limited experience going through this twice - helping my mechanic friend on a Sunday when he had access to his shop to help me with my car - we re-surfaced the fly wheel and installed new throwout bearing and clutch/pressure plate. When everything is brand new and lubed up like that, the effort to depress the clutch is super light and smooth like butter, the disengagement point was near the middle and upon release the grab point upon release was right off the floor, then banging gears up and down the street - man that is a wonderful feeling with snappy transmission of power, chirping in the first 3 gears. There's nothing better than that and a brand new set of points for smiles behind the wheel.
For my car, this lasted on that daily driver for about 2-3 weeks and then the clutch grab point upon pedal release moved up to a few inches off the floor and the effort to depress the clutch pedal increased to a medium effort (not as light as after install, but not as heavy as right before I changed it after having driven with the past clutch for 5 years). This break-in feel and engagement point shifted a bit due to exercising the throwout bearing and getting some grab and release cycles on the clutch/pressure plate surfaces.

My point is - before you go adjusting too much, just be ready for things to settle in and self adjust a bit with some miles put on the new setup. After that happens, then you can make some additional fine tuning adjustments. The OP's already made some adjustments, so don't be surprised in the next few months if things feel a bit different as things start to wear and break in and then you can fine tune again if needed.

One more word of caution which is right in line with the OP's double-checking things since someone else worked on his car. Later on when I got older and didn't have time to change the clutch I brought my car to a local shop for the job. Upon car pickup, I paid and drove away and something felt VERY off. The pedal was VERY hard to press and the pedal only traveled half way and when it got to the bottom it felt like the finger tine springs were bending. Something was wrong. I immediately drove back. The mechanic said nothing is wrong, that's how it is. I said no way - what did you do? I asked if he changed anything else. He said no. I popped the hood. There was a brand new machined push rod. I asked him "what's this?" Oh that? He said my original push rod wouldn't work right, so he made a new one. I asked him where the original was. He dug it out of the trash bin. I explained to him that my father and I had changed that clutch at least 10 times and NEVER had to use a new push rod. I told him to pull the clutch plate and inspect and re-install the original push rod. He argued, but did it the next day. When he removed the new clutch/pressure plate the finger tines were bent. It's because his new push rod was too long. He re-installed the original push rod with a 2nd new set of clutch/pressure plates and I came by and I adjusted the linkage underhood. It then drove fine. He looked bewildered. I could never understand how he thought the original push rod wasn't working correctly. Moral of story - you know your car better than anyone so trust your gut instinct!

 

[moparedtn]

The OP's already made some adjustments

Opie? Dats ME!
I'm just funnin'. I appreciate your post!
Y'know, your story hit home just this minute and I'll tell you why....

I was under Fred an hour ago, doing his annual oil change (Driven HR5 and Wix, of course) and lamenting
the leaky (yet almost new) "hemi" 6-qt pan when something caught my eye - and then I remembered
yet something else Mr. "Pro Mechanic from Chicago" told me:
He said he had added a 2nd spring in order to help with the pedal return, which I assumed meant he'd
gone under the dash to rig some nonsense up....
Yet when I looked under the dash, I saw nothing new (and of course, the pedal acted no different either)
so I blew it off to BS and forgot about it.

That is, until today....
I'm under the car, looking around like you do while waiting for things to finish draining and I spy some
odd-looking mechanics wire stretching right under the starter, on its' way to the drivers' side motor mount.

Hmmm, what the hell is that? I wondered...
Followed it back and saw it was twisted around your typical carb spring - which was then hooked into the
lower lever of the z-bar, right under the adjustment rod!!
I guess that was his attempt at helping the clutch pedal to return....

Yes, I ripped that shiyat outta there so fast it wasn't even funny.
Y'know, my wife and I had a disagreement (nothing bad, just a debate of sorts) wherein her position was
that this part of the country is unique in having rednecks (she's from NH originally).
My counterpoint was that redneckery happens in every part of the country - and honestly, the world -
in one form or another.
Well....I think "Mr. Chicago" here just proved my point, eh?

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

These guys don't want repeat business is all I can say.

 

[padam]

View attachment 1654695 Opie? Dats ME!
I'm just funnin'. I appreciate your post!
Y'know, your story hit home just this minute and I'll tell you why....

I was under Fred an hour ago, doing his annual oil change (Driven HR5 and Wix, of course) and lamenting
the leaky (yet almost new) "hemi" 6-qt pan when something caught my eye - and then I remembered
yet something else Mr. "Pro Mechanic from Chicago" told me:
He said he had added a 2nd spring in order to help with the pedal return, which I assumed meant he'd
gone under the dash to rig some nonsense up....
Yet when I looked under the dash, I saw nothing new (and of course, the pedal acted no different either)
so I blew it off to BS and forgot about it.

That is, until today....
I'm under the car, looking around like you do while waiting for things to finish draining and I spy some
odd-looking mechanics wire stretching right under the starter, on its' way to the drivers' side motor mount.
View attachment 1654701
Hmmm, what the hell is that? I wondered...
Followed it back and saw it was twisted around your typical carb spring - which was then hooked into the
lower lever of the z-bar, right under the adjustment rod!!
I guess that was his attempt at helping the clutch pedal to return....

Yes, I ripped that shiyat outta there so fast it wasn't even funny.
Y'know, my wife and I had a disagreement (nothing bad, just a debate of sorts) wherein her position was
that this part of the country is unique in having rednecks (she's from NH originally).
My counterpoint was that redneckery happens in every part of the country - and honestly, the world -
in one form or another.
Well....I think "Mr. Chicago" here just proved my point, eh?

I should add that I don’t use the over center spring.
I only have a spring from the fork to the bellhousing as shown in the photo below from the fsm. I never have to lift the pedal with my toe.

 

[toolmanmike]

I should add that I don’t use the over center spring.
I only have a spring from the fork to the bellhousing as shown in the photo below from the fsm. I never have to lift the pedal with my toe.


View attachment 1654993

You must have the "fork return spring" to pull the throw out bearing back after a gear change. The linkage isn't attached to the release fork. It's just a rod through a bushing. I think the over center spring is just to ease pedal pressure with a stock type Borg and Beck clutch. Has yours been replaced with a diaphragm style pressure plate? They don't need a over center spring with those.

 

[padam]

You must have the "fork return spring" to pull the throw out bearing back after a gear change. The linkage isn't attached to the release fork. It's just a rod through a bushing. I think the over center spring is just to ease pedal pressure with a stock type Borg and Beck clutch. Has yours been replaced with a diaphragm style pressure plate? They don't need a over center spring with those.

My linkage now is homemade from the pedal to the fork. I’ve used all three types of clutch, a Long style now.
I tried putting it back to stock parts last year but I just wasn’t happy with the result.

 

[moparedtn]

I should add that I don’t use the over center spring.
I only have a spring from the fork to the bellhousing as shown in the photo below from the fsm. I never have to lift the pedal with my toe.


View attachment 1654993

Yes, that spring is in place on Fred as well; it's whole purpose in life is to hold the throwout bearing off the fingers
of the clutch (via the fork, of course) and that's it - it has nothing to do with pedal return.

In regards to the over-center spring:
Before I tried a Centerforce diaphragm type clutch, the over-center spring worked flawlessly on the old B&B,
but once it had been disconnected (but left under dash loose) and later on, reconnected with the change
back to the RAM B&B clutch, it never returned the pedal all the way up.
I suspect the guy I paid to install the RAM over-stretched the spring on installation, to be honest.

You must have the "fork return spring" to pull the throw out bearing back after a gear change. The linkage isn't attached to the release fork. It's just a rod through a bushing. I think the over center spring is just to ease pedal pressure with a stock type Borg and Beck clutch. Has yours been replaced with a diaphragm style pressure plate? They don't need a over center spring with those.

The purpose of the over-center spring is actually two-fold - it assists with depressing the clutch pedal on the way down
as well as returns the pedal all the way up once released; you can feel it "switching over" about midway up the travel
of the pedal.

The good news in the clutch I just got in Fred is that it's basically a stock replacement B&B. The pedal effort isn't bad at
all

My linkage now is homemade from the pedal to the fork. I’ve used all three types of clutch, a Long style now.
I tried putting it back to stock parts last year but I just wasn’t happy with the result.

Mercy, a Long type? Hadn't seen one of those in a long time!

 

[moparedtn]

Oh, before I forget...
Here's the "apparatus" Mr. Chicago had "installed" on the z-bar tab and run all the way up to the motor mount,
passing tight under the starter in the process:

Yeah, I'm thinking it wasn't much help. I'm sure he meant well.
At least I got a free carb spring out of the deal.

 

[moparedtn]

P.S. They want $50 for a new over-center spring out there in parts land.
$50!?! For a friggin SPRING!?!?!
Think I might have to figure out how to get that carb spring that "mechanic" put on (Post 37)
added next to the old over-center spring to help boost it.... oy.