Cooling issues - and a weird question

[moparedtn]

It could stink rich at idle and be lean when driving, IMHO.

Ya reckon?

 

[loganlane68]

Dont mean to butt in here but the link you posted for the radiator shows the core is only 17" wide.
Might want to get something thats actually 26" wide right?

 

[TxDon]

I just noticed that Plymouth made big changes in providing cooling airflow between 1967 and 1968. My 67 only has the grille and a small opening in the bumper over the license plate while the 68 has wide open bumper vents and a row of vent holes under the grille. They obviously knew there was a problem keeping the Hipo engines cool...

 

[oldbee]

TxDon that's because those '68's were WAY more powerful! Lol

 

[coloradodave]

Ed,
A carburetor that is too lean can also make your eyes water. I wouldn't worry about plug color or jetting at this point, other than to check what size jets and metering rods are in it and compare that to what Edelbrock says should be in it. I'm leaning toward that springless bottom hose being a good part of your problem. I use a Mancini 22" aluminum 2 row, 1.25" tube with one of their aluminum shrouds and a 17" 6 blade mechanical fan. 180 thermostat, green 50/50 with a bottle of Lucas Water Wetter. Runs right at 180-200, depending on whether it's 85* or 105* here.

 

[Ranger16]

I wouldn't worry about plug color or jetting at this point, other than to check what size jets and metering rods are in it and compare that to what Edelbrock says should be in it.

Not sure what that means. If you look at the Edelbrock chart, there is a wide range (27 different combinations) of metering rods & jets. Unless you are talking about what it came with from the factory ("stock").

 

[moparedtn]

Not sure what that means. If you look at the Edelbrock chart, there is a wide range (27 different combinations) of metering rods & jets. Unless you are talking about what it came with from the factory ("stock").

I got what he meant - what the carb originally came with/shipped with.
According to Edelbrock for a Model 1407:
"Comes with: Metering Jets - Primary .113, Secondary .107; Metering Rods - .071 x .047; Step-Up Spring - orange (5" Hg)".

 

[moparedtn]

Ed,
A carburetor that is too lean can also make your eyes water. I wouldn't worry about plug color or jetting at this point, other than to check what size jets and metering rods are in it and compare that to what Edelbrock says should be in it. I'm leaning toward that springless bottom hose being a good part of your problem. I use a Mancini 22" aluminum 2 row, 1.25" tube with one of their aluminum shrouds and a 17" 6 blade mechanical fan. 180 thermostat, green 50/50 with a bottle of Lucas Water Wetter. Runs right at 180-200, depending on whether it's 85* or 105* here.

Thanks Dave, much appreciated as always.
I actually didn't order the spring from that CJ Pony bunch because their estimated delivery date isn't so hot right now for some reason, leaving me to try and find something else (or make one, I suppose).
It's also interesting that Earl's makes "internal support springs", although (in AN sizes) their biggest diameter is 1.25" or so.
I'm right with you on the carb - I'm going to verify what jetting and rods are in the 1407 and get them back to "as shipped" to start as a baseline.
I'm getting the impression the previous owner has been monkeying around with this carb - the accelerator pump rod has been moved, for example, and they apparently lost the little clip for it.

 

[Fran Blacker]

1.25' spring is better than nothing. What about a hose with a built in spring.
If the out of box jetting is in there now I'd be prepared to go richer.

 

[moparedtn]

I just noticed that Plymouth made big changes in providing cooling airflow between 1967 and 1968. My 67 only has the grille and a small opening in the bumper over the license plate while the 68 has wide open bumper vents and a row of vent holes under the grille. They obviously knew there was a problem keeping the Hipo engines cool...

View attachment 432563 View attachment 432564

Good comparison work, Don. There does appear to be quite the difference, eh?

I found an article that Mopar Muscle put out a while back that pretty much is barking up the same tree I am:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopars-need-extra-help-heat-heres-fix/
I didn't choose that triple flow jazz from US Radiator that they did, of course, but other than that, I'm sort of following their cue.

 

[moparedtn]

1.25' spring is better than nothing. What about a hose with a built in spring.
If the out of box jetting is in there now I'd be prepared to go richer.

I'm wary of a much smaller diameter spring than the 1.75" hose actually getting drawn up into the pump suction, actually.
There's one of those 50 year old parts stores in town that I'm going to visit this weekend to see what's gathering dust on their back shelf. I might get lucky there.

Yep, that's the plan on the carburetor if the factory jetting is there. I'm almost betting it isn't.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

http://www.virginiaclassicmustang.c...E-SPRING-STAINLESS-STEEL-BIG-BLOCK-P1416.aspx

 

[moparedtn]

http://www.virginiaclassicmustang.c...E-SPRING-STAINLESS-STEEL-BIG-BLOCK-P1416.aspx

Yeah, I also found that one the other evening, but when I input my zip and checked on shipping, it said "No shipping methods are available for the current items and/or the given destination."
I was like ??

 

[eric383]

If you really need the spring right now you could go to your local parts house and if they have time, might poke through their rad hoses and see if they can find one with a spring in it and buy the hose and use the spring in your hose. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[moparedtn]

Dont mean to butt in here but the link you posted for the radiator shows the core is only 17" wide.
Might want to get something thats actually 26" wide right?

They list the down flowing radiators sort of different than the crossflow ones, for whatever reason - but yes, the core is 25.5" wide and about 18" tall, just like it should be.

Regardless, it has arrived (along with the shroud from Professor Ehrenberg!) and I'm impressed:

SERIOUSLY dense core with two rows of 1.25" tubes. The quality of both items is really, really good. Oh, the radiator core is literally as thick as the tanks (about 3"). Very glad I took you alls' advice and fetched that shorter Hayden fan clutch!

Heck, even the packaging from both Griffin and Rick Ehrenberg is admirable.
Professional stuff, not what I'm used to from the usual parts store. "Premium".
I'll be playing around with what parts have arrived so far, but it gets serious when the lonely water pump arrives from Nevada early next week.

Big money out - but much better quality is coming in.
Huh, funny how that works....

 

[65Fury440]

I really enjoyed your progress. Thanks for documenting it all.
Some food for thought.

My 65 Fury 383/ 4 speed came from the factory with NO shroud, and a fixed 4 blade fan. The radiator is a 22" 2 row. I live in FL, where it can get really hot.

My car never had a problem overheating, even with a warmed over 440, driving it really hard.
I just put a 526 together, with a new aluminum pump and housing, and the system became marginal. I ditched the fixed 4 blade,went to a 18" 7 blade MP clutch fan.

I had to go to a shorter Hayden clutch , the standard duty didn't cut it, the 2947 works great.

So I still have a 22" 2 core radiator, with no shroud, cooling a 600HP engine, shifting it it 6700ish RPM, in 90 plus degrees heat. It doesn't get over 200 degrees.

I'm not sure what shroud you would put on there that would keep the fan half in and out, but it would have to almost be blocking the radiator.

I would bet you a dollar, the spring and radiator will fix you right up. All the hoopla about you have to have a shroud just isn't true. The fan being so close to the radiator is all that is needed. Putting a shroud on may restrict air, rather than help. Just my 2 cents from very recent experience.
EDIT- we were posting at same time. Sure is a pretty setup. Good luck!

 

[themechanic]

I applaud your good fortune in your specific case.

However, common sense dictates. All radiators have had shrouds since the late 60s. All new cars have shrouds. If they made cooling less efficient, manufacturers would not spend the time or money on them.

Also, for moparedtn, see Griffin Radiators' ten commandments for maximum cooling. Pay special attention to #2.

2. Thou shall shroud thy radiator when using a fan.
Fans move air through the radiator assisting in cooling the engine. A fan without a shroud is better than no fan. But, consider this. At idle or cruising speeds, you need the entire cooling system working at its optimum. An unshrouded fan is moving air through only the portion of the radiator equal to the surface area of the fan. For example, on a '32 Ford, the area of a 15.50" fan is about 189 sq. in.; the core of the radiator is approximately 371 sq. in. This means that almost 49% of the unshrouded radiator is not receiving any benefits of the fan. Shrouding your radiator lets the fan pull air through the entire core.

http://www.griffinrad.com/tips.cfm

 

[moparedtn]

65Fury440 and themechanic:
Gentlemen,
Thank you both for posting and forwarding your advice and experiences.
As you can see, I have gone ahead and fetched the Mopar reproduction of the "factory" 5-bolt shroud, hoping that it would get along with the Griffin radiator.
Homework paid off; they go together perfectly.

Now, we know a lot of Mopars didn't come from the factory with shrouds; in fact, a lot of big block cars (such as mine) came with the 22" radiator with no shroud!
Unless one got a/c and/or "max cooling" or towing packages, Ma did this a lot, it seems.
As article after article has said over the years, though, many of these cars were borderline from the get-go in regards to cooling and every one I've read, including some from Professor Ehrenberg himself, says get a dang shroud!

Well ok, I did - but here's something to consider on this:
The factory radiators these came with, brass/copper critters that they were - were their cores recessed a bit inside the tanks like the one I just took off mine?
(It was a 3 core and was about 2.5" thick; tanks are a hair over 3" wide).
The Griffin aluminum I just received has a core that totally fills the area between tanks; in other words, it's also 3" wide.
See where I'm going with this?
This means the shroud (and fan, for that matter) is now closer to the core.
I wonder if that shallower space between shroud housing and core makes a difference, especially with how dense this core is?

Only one way to find out - and to further handicap this experiment, I've decided not to hack away at the radiator support for now - yet - leaving it at the 22" opening.
This means IF things are still marginal with all the new stuff in there, I can always hack out about 3" more width in the support AND remove the shroud to see what difference it makes.

Hey, I never said I was smart....

 

[65Fury440]

65Fury440 and themechanic:
Gentlemen,
Thank you both for posting and forwarding your advice and experiences.
As you can see, I have gone ahead and fetched the Mopar reproduction of the "factory" 5-bolt shroud, hoping that it would get along with the Griffin radiator.
Homework paid off; they go together perfectly.

Now, we know a lot of Mopars didn't come from the factory with shrouds; in fact, a lot of big block cars (such as mine) came with the 22" radiator with no shroud!
Unless one got a/c and/or "max cooling" or towing packages, Ma did this a lot, it seems.
As article after article has said over the years, though, many of these cars were borderline from the get-go in regards to cooling and every one I've read, including some from Professor Ehrenberg himself, says get a dang shroud!

Well ok, I did - but here's something to consider on this:
The factory radiators these came with, brass/copper critters that they were - were their cores recessed a bit inside the tanks like the one I just took off mine?
(It was a 3 core and was about 2.5" thick; tanks are a hair over 3" wide).
The Griffin aluminum I just received has a core that totally fills the area between tanks; in other words, it's also 3" wide.
See where I'm going with this?
This means the shroud (and fan, for that matter) is now closer to the core.
I wonder if that shallower space between shroud housing and core makes a difference, especially with how dense this core is?

Only one way to find out - and to further handicap this experiment, I've decided not to hack away at the radiator support for now - yet - leaving it at the 22" opening.
This means IF things are still marginal with all the new stuff in there, I can always hack out about 3" more width in the support AND remove the shroud to see what difference it makes.

Good luck!! I am totally rootin for ya!!

Hey, I never said I was smart....

 

[oldbee]

Ed I figured it out- better quality of gas back then( made for carbureted engines! Lol.