Curious about the zinc in break in oils......

[khryslerkid]

I've always thought that adding a zddp additive to oil was overkill and maybe even harmful to oil that was already formulated for a reason. This article/thread proves that adding zddp to any oil can deplete the amount of pressure that the oil already had in the original formula. (I copied just a few highlights.)

Zink Myth and Test Data (Website Speed Talk from 2013)

You DO NOT need a high level of zinc in your motor oil for adequate wear protection in high performance engines, not even for flat tappet engines. Contrary to popular belief, the zinc level alone is NOT what determines an oil’s wear protection capability. Zinc does NOT build up a coating on parts like some sort of plating process. Zinc is consumed/sacrificed A LITTLE AT A TIME as needed by the heat and load on mating parts, to help prevent wear as the engine is operated. And it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for more zinc to provide more wear protection, because zinc simply does NOT work that way. More zinc simply lasts longer because it takes longer for a larger quantity of it to be depleted. It’s much like the way more gas in your tank takes longer to run out, but more gas in your tank does NOT give you more HP.

The thinking that more zinc provides more wear protection is only FOLKLORE that has been repeated so many times that most people just ASSUME it’s true without any proof. And repeating wrong information a million times will NOT magically make it become true. Among those who just assume it is true, includes people at Cam Companies, and even people at some of the smaller Oil Companies who apparently don’t bother to perform any wear protection testing, since their oils often fall WAY SHORT of their own outlandish hype. The fact is, there is absolutely NO real world test data proof to back up the incorrect urban legend that more zinc is needed for more protection. That is merely a MYTH that has been BUSTED by actual real world dynamic motor oil wear testing under load. An oil’s wear protection capability is determined by its base oil and additive package “as a whole”, NOT just by how much zinc is present. And newer motor oil anti-wear additive components that have replaced a good percentage of the zinc that used to be used, are equal to or better than zinc. There is absolutely NOTHING magical about zinc that makes it the only component worthy of being used.
---‐----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
88. “ZDDPlus” added to O’Reilly (house brand) 5W30, API SN, conventional = 56,728 psi
zinc = 2711 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2172 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)

The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 38% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.


89. “ZDDPlus” added to Motorcraft 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 56,243 psi
zinc = 2955 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2114 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 76 ppm (up 2 ppm)

The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 12% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

90. “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” added to Royal Purple 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 54,044 psi
zinc = 1515 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1334 ppm (up 517 ppm)
moly = 15 ppm (up 15 ppm)

The amount of Edelbrock Zinc Additive added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was a whopping 36% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc Additive was added to it. Adding Edelbrock Zinc Additive SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

Zinc Myth and Test Data on a Dozen more Oils - Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

 

[moparedtn]

My father-in-law and I are very interested in the whole ZDDP thing since he builds engines and has a machine shop. We DON'T want to wipe camshafts on engines we have built - that is expensive! Anyway, we have read a lot about this and spoken to oil company representatives, especially at trade shows like PRI.

ZDDP acts almost like a bearing; bonding to metal and then providing protection against metal to metal contact.

There are a few aspects regarding ZDDP:
1) The amount: Generally, for flat tappet cam engines, you want 1500 to 2000 PPM (Parts Per Million) of ZDDP in your oil. The problem is, I have seen NO oil containers that actually tell you the amount of ZDDP that is in them. Too little ZDDP will cause wear, and too much makes the oil acidic. My preference is to use a good oil designed for flat tappet engines rather than using bottle of ZDDP additive (although I will certainly use additive when I don't have high ZDDP oil available).

2) Fast vs. slow acting ZDDP: Some ZDDP is slow acting, and this is better for continual usage in a broken in, flat tappet cam engine. This ZDDP is slow to bond, but also wears slower. Other ZDDP is fast acting, and this is what you want to break an engine in, since you want that ZDDP to immediately bond and protect the engine.

3) ZDDP vs. Detergents: I have heard that some oil detergents can negate the ZDDP. I personally don't have any information on this, so I can't comment on if that is a real issue or not.

For break in, I recommend Driven break in oil. No, I don't work for Driven or get any kickbacks. But I do have it on good evidence that they have the right combination of ZDDP for break in of flat tappet cam engines. (But note, with high spring pressures above 300#, you should still use weak springs even with the proper break in oil.)

Based on countless threads on here and my own research, my list of acceptable oils for Fred (flat tappet Purpleshaft 440)
is short:
Driven "HR"
PennGrade (formerly Brad Penn) "green" oil
In a pinch, the Valvoline racing conventional
Filter is always Wix naturally

That said, I offer for consideration the following fairly well known dissertation that's been out there for some years now
that explains there is a DIFFERENCE between the zinc used in conventional (dino) oils vs. that used in synthetics, among
other useful information:

"How Much ZDDP is Enough? How Much is Too Much?​

All modern motor oils contain some level of ZDDP, but not enough to protect an older engine, especially during break-in. Most modern motor oils have a maximum of 800 ppm (parts per million) of ZDDP. However, the recommended bare minimum for flat-tappet cam engines and fresh-built engines of all types is 1,000, but most experts agree that 1,200 ppm of ZDDP in your oil is preferred.

You must strike a balance on the ZDDP content in your oil if your vehicle has a catalytic converter; this is where the 1,000 ppm level is sufficient. All motor oils have a rating, commonly SH, SJ, and SL. The SH rating was introduced in 1992, and this oil is no longer available and had 1,200 ppm of zinc phosphorous. (This was an important "sea change" moment in oil formulation history!)
In 1996, the SJ rating was introduced, and the ppm levels came down to 1,000.

The real problems with premature engine wear in older engines and freshly-built flat-tappet engines began in earnest around 2004 when the SM rating was brought out, which further reduced the ZDDP levels to a maximum of 800. You can see the oil rating in the API “donut” graphic, which is required to be on the label. The current API rating is SN, rated for vehicles made after 2010. ZDDP additives are sometimes formulated for both conventional and synthetic oils, you do need to verify that product you choose is ZDDP additive for synthetic oil or for conventional oil to match your preferred type of engine oil. Technically speaking, Zinc oil additives for synthetic is actually ZDTP, Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, whereas conventional oil Zinc is ZDDP, Zinc Dialkylphophate."

I'm sorry, I can't remember where I copied that from - I saved it to my PC years ago, probably the first time this subject came to my
attention on this very forum I bet. Probably could find the source easily with a simple GIS....

All that said, the folks at Driven did the research from scratch some years ago out of necessity for their own engine program (Joe Gibbs racing). Many have benefitted from that research and the product, although not cheap, has always served me well.
I'd suggest going to their website to read up on all of that if you're curious; I just order up a case and a couple Wix every year about this time and that's that.

 

[j-c-c-62]

I was under the impression AP SN rating does not directly address "detergents", it rates more performance of the oil and the quantity of additives such as zinc. Detergents are left up to the blender as long as they do not obstruct the oil from performing to the standard being sought.

BTW, I just purchased yesterday 326 1-liter containers (80 gals?) of racing Full synthetic API N 05W-40 for a really good price.
I will have it lab tested next week to confirm the basics of the oil.

 

[DeltaV]

Rainy day reading...

I'm retired and no longer have access to SAE industry specs or military specs. Maybe @RJRENTON has access?

SAE J2361 Lubricating Oil, Internal Combustion Engine, Preservation Break-In(Cancelled Feb 2013)​

Instead, try MIL-L-21260D, MILITARY SPECIFICATION: LUBRICATING OIL, INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE, PRESERVATIVE BREAK-IN (29-APR-1988) [S/S BY MIL-PRF-21260E]., This specification covers engine oils suitable for preservation, break-in, and lubrication of reciprocating internal combustion engines of both spark-ignition and compression-ignition types, and of power transmission fluid applications in equipment used in combat/tactical service.

 

[HawkRod]

Amsoil's site does list their 30W Break In Oil as having 2,200 ppm Zinc, and 2,000 ppm phosphorus.

Assuming that it has fast acting ZDDP, that sounds to me like a good amount for a break in oil.

How about after break-in? What is a recommended oil for regular use in a flat tappet engine.

In my opinion, I would use an oil that is blended with higher ZDDP levels and not add separate bottles of ZDDP additive. As illustrated by @khryslerkid's post above, adding ZDDP additives can be very hit and miss.
Examples of higher ZDDP oils would be Amsoil Z-Rod oil or Driven HR5 or HR6, but there are many other brands. I'd suggest you get it from a large and well respected company that has likely done extensive research rather then just throwing something together to sell.

 

[HawkRod]

SM rating was brought out, which further reduced the ZDDP levels to a maximum of 800.

I seem to recall that most oils for modern engines have about 600 PPM. This fits with the "max of 800", as they probably want to stay we clear of the maximum. Also, if I recall, ZDDP is not good for catalytic converters which is why it as been reduced in modern oils.

 

[moparedtn]

I seem to recall that most oils for modern engines have about 600 PPM. This fits with the "max of 800", as they probably want to stay we clear of the maximum. Also, if I recall, ZDDP is not good for catalytic converters which is why it as been reduced in modern oils.

Yes, that's all quite well established/known at this point...

 

[nitro_rat]

Zinc is an element that we use in our motor oils to ensure minimum wear during engine break in. We are told this is essential in avoiding cam/lifter failures at start up. We buy infused zinc motor oil, zinc oil additives , and , I assume the cam lube paste we apply directly to the lobes also contains high amounts of zinc. My question is , is the zinc in these forms small enough to pass thru an oil filter or is it getting pulled out as the oil flows thru the filter. I understand from my old Chevy days that only 12% of oil flow on stock engines passes thru the filter while running. Would that be a fair assumption on stock Mopar engines in general as well. Just wondering if we are poking it in there and the filter is pulling it out...thanks....

"Zinc" or "ZDDP" as an engine oil additives are actually zinc dialkyldithiophosphates. Think of this stuff like salt. You pour salt in water and dissolve it. Now you have salt water. You can pour it through a sock, an oil filter, cheesecloth, whatever - and you still have salt water You can't feel the salt grains with your fingers, they have dissolved.

Most oil filters filter out particles in the 20-30 micron size. The human eye can see particles in the 20-100 micron range, 70 microns being a common average. So you're talking about stuff you can see with your eye, stuff you can feel with your fingers. You would have to have a centrifuge or something to filter the "zinc" out of motor oil.

There are filter systems that only filter a small portion of the flow. They're called "bypass" filtration systems. These systems have a filter that typically filters down to 3-5 microns. Due to the increased resistance of the filter media, it isn't possible to pass the entire flow of engine oil through it. A small portion of the oil "bypasses" the lube oil system and runs through the filter. The old Chevys with the can up on the intake had this type of filter. See the tiny little feed and return lines below?

Modern engines, including the Chevy mouse motor since at least the early 60's use a "full flow" oil system. In this system, ALL of the oil from the pump is directed through the filter media. The spin on cartridge has an internal bypass. When oil is cold and pressure is high, the bypass opens and lets the oil pass rather than burst the canister. Sometimes a high pressure or high volume oil pump can cause the internal bypass to open excessively as well. Better dirty oil than no oil...

Ma' Mopar went to full flow in the late 50's, first with a canister and later a spin on element. Some heavy duty applications kept the canister until the late 60's/early 70's as it has a better micron rating than a spin-on.

The canister and filter element mount to the block right where the spin on unit goes. There's a long center bolt that goes through the whole shebang into the block. The filter element comes with all of the seals necessary. It's possible to put this setup on any A, LA, B, RB, or even Magnum engine if you can locate the canister and hardware. Just yank off the filter adapter and put that archaic stuff in its place!

(It still won't filter anything fine enough to strip your oil of it's ZDDP)

 

[j-c-c-62]

The point of zinc stopping flow thru an oil filter was questioned very early on in this thread and evidence was never shared to back up that contention. I can't dispute the concept of zinc "dissolving" in oil, but I do question if other additives/detergents' intentionally or coincidently might cause zinc to coagulate and then zinc become filterable as a new compound. I don't know, and therefore I can't yet rule it out.

Kind of like the COVID mask debate, COVID was never filtered by a mask, but the water aerosols covid was dissolved/contained in were.

 

[nitro_rat]

The point of zinc stopping flow thru an oil filter was questioned very early on in this thread and evidence was never shared to back up that contention. I can't dispute the concept of zinc "dissolving" in oil, but I do question if other additives/detergents' intentionally or coincidently might cause zinc to coagulate and then zinc become filterable as a new compound. I don't know, and therefore I can't yet rule it out.

Kind of like the COVID mask debate, COVID was never filtered by a mask, but the water aerosols covid was dissolved/contained in were.

The micron rating that begins to catch insoluable additives is around 3-5 microns. You can start catching anti foaming additives at this level as well as compounds formed by incompatible additives coagulating together. Your spin on element is going to be in the 30 micron range up to around 70 microns for some of the racing filters. It's like trying to catch flies with a tennis racket, the holes in the filter media are way to big to care about additives.

If you are worried about incompatible additives (and you should be) then don't be mixing your own cocktails of lubricants. There are plenty of reputable petroleum product manufacturers that make a product for every conceivable application. Most of them even have a tech line you can call and speak to a knowledgeable individual about your specific application!

 

[khryslerkid]

Filters haven't changed much in all these years and when the oil of yesterday had a good amount of ZDDP there wasn't ever a debate on a filter separating it. It's not going to happen.

As stated in the site that I posted, the amount of ZDDP in oil will last so long because of natural breakdown. The more ZDDP formulated in an oil, it will last a little longer than an oil that doesn't have as much. But adding ZDDP additive to oil already formulated can change the pressure rating as tested in the thread I posted.

 

[j-c-c-62]

The micron rating that begins to catch insoluable additives is around 3-5 microns. You can start catching anti foaming additives at this level as well as compounds formed by incompatible additives coagulating together. Your spin on element is going to be in the 30 micron range up to around 70 microns for some of the racing filters. It's like trying to catch flies with a tennis racket, the holes in the filter media are way to big to care about additives.

If you are worried about incompatible additives (and you should be) then don't be mixing your own cocktails of lubricants. There are plenty of reputable petroleum product manufacturers that make a product for every conceivable application. Most of them even have a tech line you can call and speak to a knowledgeable individual about your specific application!

Except it is still unknown what we are maybe trying to avoid filtering here flies or pigs for instance, as I have no idea what coagulates maybe forming in our DIY oil cocktails.

This whole line of thought got derailed partly in replies #1 &#7 IMO, and aptly debunked since.
I do have a question on oil ratings. Can an oil be Rated SN, but include high zinc levels because it is labeled as a off road "racing" oil?

 

[nitro_rat]

Except it is still unknown what we are maybe trying to avoid filtering here flies or pigs for instance, as I have no idea what coagulates maybe forming in our DIY oil cocktails.

If you're mixing enough additives to coagulate something big enough to filter it out with a filter you'll be able to SEE it with your eye. If your additive mix is making chunkies you'll be far better off not with additives at all! In fact, there's probably nothing that even a petroleum engineer could communicate to you that would improve your situation...

 

[j-c-c-62]

Well, I assume if one has a stopped-up oil filter that is bypassing 100% or even the earlier mentioned 88% of the oil flow, something must be visible to the nmaked eye on the filter media.

 

[nitro_rat]

Well, I assume if one has a stopped-up oil filter that is bypassing 100% or even the earlier mentioned 88% of the oil flow, something must be visible to the nmaked eye on the filter media.

Pressure differential is what opens the bypass valve. That differential could be caused by restriction due to clogged filter media. If your entire oil supply is so coagulated that it is causing the filter to bypass 100% your oil is not going to pass through the bearing clearances either and the rods knocking will let you know that you've poured too much zinc in your crankcase...

 

[j-c-c-62]

"If your entire oil supply is so coagulated"

That is not the level that is required to cause a large filter oil bypass condition, what is needed is just enough to block the filter media.

And what will flow thru bearings I believe in most cases is much larger than what most filters will collect, but I maybe wrong.

 

[Photon440]

Can an oil be Rated SN, but include high zinc levels because it is labeled as a off road "racing" oil?

That wouldn't be likely. It could be given a special racing oil designation, but wouldn't meet the SN specs. And there would be less need for high zinc levels; serious racing usually involves changing the oil for each race, before the zinc is gone, which is the reason that WIX (and other) racing filters flow better but have a larger micron size. They aren't expecting to be filtering old used up oil

 

[68-500]

Guys zinc is your last line of defense. If you’re worried using up the zinc in your oil you need better oil. Search out the oil with the highest psi oil film thats what matters first. As to zinc additives. Your oil filter filtering your zinc additives is a null point. If you’re using a good oil with a high psi oil film and dilute with an additive decreasing your first line of defense to increase your last line you’re going backwards.

 

[j-c-c-62]

That wouldn't be likely. It could be given a special racing oil designation, but wouldn't meet the SN specs. And there would be less need for high zinc levels; serious racing usually involves changing the oil for each race, before the zinc is gone, which is the reason that WIX (and other) racing filters flow better but have a larger micron size. They aren't expecting to be filtering old used up oil

What might be happening here is the additive, a compound containing Zinc, does break down, but the element zinc does not leave, except by what might be found in the filter or at an oil change.

 

[nitro_rat]

You will have other problems from too much "zinc" before clogging your oil filter. Your oil will become acidic and you will start experiencing corrosive wear. The ZDDP will smear across wear surfaces like the faces of your lifters. When it shears off it will take some of the base metal with it causing micro pitting.

Oil filter micron rating and bearing clearances are pretty closely related. The intent is to trap particles that are too big to pass harmlessly through the bearing clearance. Racing engines typically have looser bearing clearances and racing filters have larger micron ratings.