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Date code value opinions wanted

D

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I have a 70 Road Runner 440 Six Barrel 4-spd with a 74 block. The car was born in October 69 according to the door tag. The build sheet is long gone so I don't know which day in October. The car came with a 23-spline 4-spd which I replaced with a Kiesler 5-spd conversion, but I recently scored a correct 70 B-body 18-spline for a really good price which I am saving in case I or the next owner wants to bring it back to factory stock.

I found a 69 long block cast early August 69. The car will never be numbers matching, but having a correct date code block will raise the value over a 74 block, right? I can snag the motor for $450 or less. 69runner says it may be a little too early a casting but close. Anybody else want to chime in with an opinion? Should I buy and stash this 440, wait until I find a September casing, or forget the whole idea of collecting correct date code parts for a future resto to stock that may never happen?
 
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Should I buy and stash this 440, wait until I find a September casing, or forget the whole idea of collecting correct date code parts for a future resto to stock that may never happen?[/QUOTE]

How did I answer my question?
 
When you said the resto may never happen is how. But first you could not get a 440 other than the hand full of 6 Packs in a 69 Road Runner or Superbee. But the August date code would be about right but it wont increase value because it don't match. And it is not a fact that 440 and Hime cars had 18 splines as much as people would like to think so. My 68 383 Road Runner had 18, my 440 SE R/T 69 Charger has 23. I also worked at the Dodge place back in the day and saw this all the time.
 
OK, Patrick, a 440 built in August 1969 would be in a 1970 model car, right? The block for a 1970 six pack is the same as a regular 440, the differences are internal, right? I am told that 18-splines came in all Hemi and 440 six pack cars, 23 splines in others. Maybe the 18 was an option on other cars, but it came from the factory in my car with with the 3.54 Dana.

This is a rust free Texas car, the one pictured on my posts. Someday way in the future I'm going to sell the car, or my widow will pry the keys from my cold dead fingers and sell it. I'm thinking that having a transmission and engine block of the correct date code to go with the car isn't as good as being numbers matching but better than a 74 block and an after market transmission to a buyer who might want to be able to return as close to stock as possible.
 
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Hemi and 440 cars with 4 speeds had 18 spline transmissions from the factory. Or perhaps I should say they were all SUPPOSED to. Nothing else did. It wasn't available as an option on anything else with a 4 speed.

And if you give it much thought, there really wasn't much chance of them being inadvertently swapped, or substituted at the factory since it would have meant busting the bellhousing and clutch off a motor in order to do that "substitution".

It isn't like substituting an "055" for an "054" cause the bin was empty.

I don't believe it, and I doubt your 69 R/T SE has a number's matching 23 spline trans in it.
 
I didn't know all 440 4-spds including 4-bbl motors, came with 18-splines. Learn something new every day...
 
Yep. They got the 18 spline and the Dana automatically when you opted for a 4 speed. Seems kinda stupid to think they would make you take a Dana with a 440 or Hemi with a 4 speed, then leave the 23 spline in between don't you think?
 
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Myself I think a date code block is kind of a joke.Once the original engine is gone its gone.Replacing it with the correct cubic inch motor is good enough.
Jim
 
In my opinion, you should get the date coded engine. Not everyone cares about that kind of stuff, but there are a lot of people who do. I know it will not make the car matching numbers, but, IMO it is worth more than a car with a newer engine.
 
First let me say that I agree with 69 RUNNER's response to Patrick regarding the 18/23 spline trans.

Second, in a a perfect world a difference of 4-6 weeks is the norm for a 67-70 casting date to assembly date for a 440 engine. However, back in those days there was little quality control or concerns over stock rotation until the end of a model year when they were getting ready to shut the plant down for model change over. At that time they wanted to make sure that the engines stamped with an alpha character for the previous year did not end up in the next year model car. This being said, without consideration for stock rotation, many "older" engines got installed in cars that were built much later than the typical 4-6 week difference stated above. I know in the Corvette world for judging OEM (NCRS) they allow for a casting date to pre-date the build time of the car up to six months. Why? Because it happened. Was it the norm? No, but you can't selectively decide which cars may or may not have been a victum of this senerio.

Third, I have posted/sent the following on many Mopar sites and to many people over the years so if when you read it some of it seems odd it is because it was in response to other direct questions on this subject.



Welcome to reality! LOL!

I have been involved in the muscle, antique, sports, and special interest cars hobby for 40 years. I was a member of The National Corvette Restorer's Society (NCRS) back in 1974 and restamping of Corvette engines was happening then. There has been a company in Wisc? Engines Unlimited? They have been hoarding old blocks and offering correct casting numbers, with various cast dates to choose from and offers rebuilds to factory or custom specs and stamping V.I.N.s with the correct fonts for at LEAST 15-20 years that they have been advertising in Hemmings Motor News. I am certain that many "numbers matching" engines for Mopars have come from sources just like this as well as individuals performing this work in the secret of their own garages. New comers to the hobby are simply naive to what has been happening in the hobby for 30 plus years. The Mopar world was left out of this for a long time simply because their values did not warrant the extra cost. That and possibly the fact that we are lucky enough to have a model and engine specific V.I.N. to authenticate the cars is enough to satisfy the hobby until the point of when people became obsessed with original number drivetrains. How can so many people be so stupid to think that so many of these cars that were beat to death from the day they were purchased until they lay derelict in a boneyard, to later be restored to what so many today BELIEVE were well cared for examples that were "saved?" LOL!

The TRUE surviving untouched original examples (when it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt) SHOULD command a much higher price than the typical over glossy base coat/clear coat paint jobs or the resto-mod craze that people have come to prefer over a true OEM resto. These cars are for the most part (even though looked to for original examples for restoration) are saddly over looked in terms of people purchasing them for the money they deserve and kept in this condition to live as the true examples they are.

All you have to do is look at judging manuals for old cars that HAVE a written judging manual. In these cases you will find that for O.E.M. judging, the car will score progessively higher with each of the following:

1. Correct casting numbered block

2. Correct casting date in relationship to the estimated build time of the subject car.

3. correct stamped dates, V.I.N. (and codes for h.p./options when this applies)

We all know that the higher a car scores in judged competition, the more money it will bring compared to a like type car that scores lower.

Therefore, the date code correct engine WILL have an effect on the cars value.
 
I would think that between option #2 and option #3 would be a factory replacement block, one with no VIN stamped on it and a big S on the top pad, (or so I'm told) cast after the build date of the car. This is the block a dealer would have installed under warranty. Having the paperwork to prove it would bring it close to being numbers matching/#3. Yes?
 
I would think that between option #2 and option #3 would be a factory replacement block, one with no VIN stamped on it and a big S on the top pad, (or so I'm told) cast after the build date of the car. This is the block a dealer would have installed under warranty. Having the paperwork to prove it would bring it close to being numbers matching/#3. Yes?

There is nothing between #2 and #3.

A replacement block provided by the factory without a V.I.N. regardless of the reason (warranty or customer paid for) would be cast and assembled AFTER the car was built. For Judging purposes as I indicated above, the first thing looked at for CORRECTNESS (and points awarded) is the casting number of the block. The second thing looked at is the casting date in relation to the build time of the car. If it fits the "window" prior to the build time of the car, it is awarded additional points. The next looked at is the ASSEMBLY date and V.I.N. if appropriate for the year of the car and if all is correct it is awarded still more additional points.

What you are suggesting is that a warranty or service replacement engine has more value than the senerio I have indicated above, but it is not so.

Why does everyone place value on a replacement engine that would be built AFTER the car was built? It is really no different than any other engine that could have been installed years later. Just because someone blew up the engine within the first 5 years of its life (remember, 5 year 50,000 mile drivtrain warranty) and MAY have been replaced at the manufactures expense, really adds no value to the car. I was selling these cars NEW and I can tell you that the factory seldom replaced a complete block. They only fixed what was necessary. I remember them replacing one rod, piston and rings and nothing more on an engine that had a bent rod. Engines problems on high performance cars were ALWAYS looked at harder than family cars for abuse and many claims were denied.

The senerio laid out (and used for judging) above makes much more sense doesn't it?
 
I respectfully disagree. Suppose a build sheet on a car showed steelies and dog dishes, but the dealer installed Rallyes and delivered it that way and the owner had the paperwork to prove it. Would the judges take off points for the Rallyes? A replacement block isn't what the car was built with, but it is what Ma Mopar decided to put in it after the original blew and so is more "correct" than a block with the VIN off another car some owner dropped in himself. Are you saying that a 70 Road Runner with a replacement block dated after the build, that could have been installed by the dealer as a warranty item, is worth less than the same car with a correct casting number and casting date a month or so before the build but with another car's VIN stamped on it? All other things being equal, are you saying the replacement block car would outscore the car with the correct date and casting but wrong VIN?
 
I respectfully disagree. Suppose a build sheet on a car showed steelies and dog dishes, but the dealer installed Rallyes and delivered it that way and the owner had the paperwork to prove it. Would the judges take off points for the Rallyes? A replacement block isn't what the car was built with, but it is what Ma Mopar decided to put in it after the original blew and so is more "correct" than a block with the VIN off another car some owner dropped in himself. Are you saying that a 70 Road Runner with a replacement block dated after the build, that could have been installed by the dealer as a warranty item, is worth less than the same car with a correct casting number and casting date a month or so before the build but with another car's VIN stamped on it? All other things being equal, are you saying the replacement block car would outscore the car with the correct date and casting but wrong VIN?

Yes, that is what I am saying.

OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer. This is Ma Mopar NOT the dealer. The car is judged on how it was delivered from the FACTORY, not the DEALER.

You are confused as to how OEM judging is done. When you enter judging no one is going to ask you for your broadcast sheet or any dealer documentation for "changes." If they look at anything they are going to look at your fender tag and if the venue is set up to judge the car according to it they will follow that.

Not all cars had a B/S left in them from the factory so you can't ask someone for something that may have never been available to the original owner of the car.

If the venue calls for following the fender tag they will expect the car to be as the tag indicates. However, not all options are shown on the tag that the car may have been delivered with. In fact, the fender tag from MOST plants really only identifies things critical to the body in white, paint, interior, etc. and not things like you used as an example such as wheels.

What I am getting at here is that if the car is loaded with options they will expect all of those options to be correct for the year and model of the car and you will be judged on that as well. This is why a car with less options actually has an advantage over a loaded car, as there is less to judge and take points "away" from the car.

Regardless of what wheels you have on your car or how it actually came from the factory, if the wheels you have were available for that car you will be judged the same weather they are ralleys or steelies as BOTH were available. No one is going to ask you for PROOF that your car was delivered from the factory with the options you have on your car. However, if you show up with a 1968 B body with a six way seat (that was not available until 1969) you certainly will get no consideration other than beig docked points because it is not the correct seat configuaration for that 68 model.

I don't believe I used an engine with a different V.I.N. as an example of more points, but if it has a V.I.N. it better be the right one for the car. If it had the wrong V.I.N. the car would lose points over an engine with a blank pad, but it would have to be date code correct for the time the car was built. A dealer installed engine, weather it is warranty or not with or without paperwork documentation means nothing other than it is the wrong engine with a date code PROVING that it could not possibly be the original engine for that car. The reason for the sliding scale that I outlined in the OEM judging allows for a factory oversight of NOT stamping the V.I.N. Which in the case of correct casting number (certain number of points) correct casting date (in relationship of the time the car was built) more points. You have to remember that the factory made mistakes AND that there are transitional years when it was hit or miss for the V.I.N. being stamped. Then you also have the years that the V.I.N. was never intended to be stamped.

I think where you are confused regarding the value of an engine that never had a V.I.N. stamped in it over a correct year engine from another car with a V.I.N. stamping. This comes from what people are willing to pay for one. As an example, an engine without a V.I.N. has a factory virgin pad with the factory correct broaching machine marks. All someone has to do is have the correct font stamp characters and they can make a reproduction engine that is undetectable. If you have another engine that came from a like type car but of course the V.I.N. is not correct for your car, in order to create a reproduction engine for your car requires grinding/milling these numbers off, then trying to recreate the broaching marks before you stamp it. THEREFORE, there are people out there willing to pay more money for a casting date correct V.I.N.less engine.

I hope this clears it up for you. If not, call me on the phone 928-277-4692 between 7:00-10:00 PM AZ. time and I will discuss it with you further BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF TYPING.:tongueflap:
 
I will never get my car judged OEM. I bought it to drive, not show. Why marry a supermodel and sleep in a separate bedroom??? Trailer queens, to me, are a waste of money. Chasing Gold at the Mopar Nats is cool - for other people. I'm just collecting parts in case some other person at some time wants to do an as-built full resto, or as close as possible since the original engine and trans are long gone. Yeah, somebody could take a warranty block with blank pad and stamp it, but they would also have to grind off the S on the top pad, etc. I'll never play that game. I can get a May 69 bare block with the right casting number for $100, but my car is October 69 build so it may be too early. At the Nats I passed on a January 70 warranty block with also the correct casting number for my car with crank and rods for under $400 and am kicking myself for it. In my opinion, which will not change, the warranty block is the next best thing to numbers matching.
 
I agree ,I would choose a warranty block first and then a date coded block, but when the original is gone , it's gone.

Just remember the engines were built before the cars, some times weeks ahead, and some times months ahead, The important thing is that it is presented as what it is and enjoy it.
 
I agree ,I would choose a warranty block first and then a date coded block, but when the original is gone , it's gone.

Just remember the engines were built before the cars, some times weeks ahead, and some times months ahead, The important thing is that it is presented as what it is and enjoy it.


And that is EXACTLY why a casting date code correct (cast before the SPD of the car) is valued higher than a warranty block that would be cast AFTER the car was built. this is for judging purposes. The higher a car scores in judging the more it is worth when selling.
 
To me I still would rather have the warranty block with out a VIN stamped on it, than a block with the VIN from another car. This should save a few points, But still when the original engine is lost a substantial amount of the cars potential value goes with it. A car only has one, true, original engine, and I personally disagree with the re-stamping of engine block because someone will get burnt with it sooner of later.
 
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