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disc brakes?

FYI
Class C trucks still use drum brakes and they work fine for them.

Are disc better than drum? Well of course they are.
Are drums up to the task for msot people. AS long as they are power, sure they are.
I will give in on manual drum brakes; they suck.
 
FYI
Class C trucks still use drum brakes and they work fine for them.

Are disc better than drum? Well of course they are.
Are drums up to the task for msot people. AS long as they are power, sure they are.
I will give in on manual drum brakes; they suck.
drum brakes are useless when wet, go through a puddle deeper than an inch and you need to pump them to get the water out
have power drums now definitely gonna do the conversion my original intent
of this thread was do I g nuts looking for the correct discs for that year or use the later 1 piston caliper
thanks for the input!
 
My coronet drums scare the crap out of me when I first drove it.

If you love them, keep them, but to me a safer to upgrade if your using it to as a daily driver and driving in the city full of SUV driving, cell phone armed soccer mothers.

As a biker, I see your point!!!!! I'd rather ride with a road full of drunks!!!!
 
My feedback after just doing this

Got my kit off of ebay...It was a complete kit booster,spindles and all..It has the 4 piston setup too...The 4 piston setup is better than the two..More is always better..Right?I also have slotted vented rotors..This helps in cooling...It was easy to do,had it all bolted up in a day...I didn,t want to have to search for parts and take parts in to have rebuilt or exchanged...Gonna do a rear disc setup next..First gotta get my hands on a cheap truck dana 60 first..Gots lots of 4x4 shops were I live...Most are hurtin for money so I,ll have them cut new tubes and weld on the disc brake stuff...I,m gonna go to 4.10 gears too..The 3.55 In it now is still a little tall...
Petty Blue 67 GTX

Hey guys, I'm a little late on this post, but I just finished doing the front disc thing a few months ago so I hope my experience helps some of you out -

I have a '68 sport satellite. Rear drum, front disc. Originally a front drum car, but the previous owner swapped them out for front disc from a '71 E body. Those brakes were real snappy, but pulled to the left hard. Almost made me feel like I was going to run off the road!

So the first mistake I made was selling those front E-body brakes! Get a pair of those if you can. Lesson learned - NEVER get rid of the old parts until the new parts are installed and proven to function to your satisfaction.

What I did was ordered a complete kit with new spindles already assembled from Master Power Brakes. That was my 2nd mistake. I had my trusted hot rod mechanic install it all for me and do an alignment. He called me in and showed me how the mating parts that slide and fit together had tons of slop. Even I could tell that something was not right. He explained that he'd seen this before because Master Power buys foreign made parts and throws them together and things don't fit all nice and neat. Not so with Stainless Steel Brakes or Wildwood, which use all U.S. made parts. I wanted SSBC but was told by them that I needed the stock drum spindle since they don't include a spindle in their kit - theirs is made to adapt to the drum spindle. Not sure about Wildwood, but I've heard great feedback on Wildwood system performance. I might upgrade to Wildwood down the road... luckily, my mechanic was able to use some hammer persuasion and know how to get the Master Power parts working correctly.

The thing I noticed that changed after the install was no more pulling to the left, which turned out to just be a clogged brake line. Next I noticed that although not spongy, the brakes weren't snappy in response anymore. I think I liked it snappy better. I heard that Wildwood's are snappy, but SSBC and Master Power have a more linear response. I'm going to try upgrading to softer more aggressive pads and see what happens.

Two other things I learned - More pistons is not better! I understand that 4 is better than 2 from what I've read, but some of the big brake companies offer 6 piston and it seems that the 6 piston are actually inferior to the 4 piston and don't perform as well.

The other thing I found out is that those pretty cross-drilled slotted rotors don't really do JACK for your stopping power or parts longevity. Actually makes it worse. The metal of the calipers actually cools FASTER with flat rotors that don't have holes because the heat is conducted and dissipated faster. Kind of counter-intuitive, huh? Think of an audio amp with cooling fins. More surface area means better cooling. The slotted vents are a bit different story - they were originally designed to scrape off accumulated brake glaze, but there is debate on whether they do much at all.

I also realized that Marketing greatly influences our opinion. I originally bought the Master Power Brakes because I saw a fancy tech install article on them going into a '68 b-body like mine in Mopar Muscle Magazine. Better to ask around and get responses from others. I think the consensus is that Wildwood is a good bet. Save $200 and go with the standard rotors not the cross-drilled ones.
 
In my opinion, drum brake cars should be legally relegated to trailers on there way to car shows.

There is NO way that original drums can compete in normal driving today.

If someone wants to drive these old cars on the road today, It's irresponsible to do it with antique drum brakes.

So you think my dad's 68 Coronet cop car should be relagated to a trailer.

11x3 front and 11x 2 1/2 inch drums with special police linings. Would put you thru the windshield at 100. It was the 2nd or 3rd stop that they would begin to fade.
Even your modern daily driver would be smoking the pads by then.
 
So you think my dad's 68 Coronet cop car should be relagated to a trailer.

11x3 front and 11x 2 1/2 inch drums with special police linings. Would put you thru the windshield at 100. It was the 2nd or 3rd stop that they would begin to fade.
Even your modern daily driver would be smoking the pads by then.


The fact is the drum brake is a better system mechanically because it has servo action. Discs don't have that feature and rely strictly on pressure to stop the rotor, however they do just fine and are not prone to locking up. Discs do run cooler than drums and that is a big advantage. Regarding the water issue, I've had a few cases where wet discs didn't want to stop right away either. I'll agree that drums aren't the worst thing to ever hit the road. I have 11x3's on my 66 Plymouth and they are staying put.
 
"So you think my dad's 68 Coronet cop car should be relagated to a trailer.

11x3 front and 11x 2 1/2 inch drums with special police linings. Would put you thru the windshield at 100. It was the 2nd or 3rd stop that they would begin to fade.
Even your modern daily driver would be smoking the pads by then."


I can pretty much guarantee that I have owned and parted out more cop cars than any individual in the Mopar hobby.

Very few cop cars got the unique special ordered cop, sintered iron, drum brake systems, If indeed that is what you are describing (I doubt it since you say that they fade after 2 or 3 stops, and the ultra rarity of such packages).

The sintered iron drum systems were great performers (at the cost of astonishingly fast drum wear/distortion/cracking/melting), but to compare these ultra rare systems to common drum brakes is absurd. Plus the Brake shoes were never available as over the counter replacement parts, and the heat generated would quickly destroy the wheel bearings (as it melted the grease and seals).

In all, probably the most self destructive brake system ever produced, but could certainly hold their own against disks of the time. definitely not against todays systems.

-----------------
The fact is the drum brake is a better system mechanically because it has servo action. Discs don't have that feature and rely strictly on pressure to stop the rotor, however they do just fine and are not prone to locking up. Discs do run cooler than drums and that is a big advantage. Regarding the water issue, I've had a few cases where wet discs didn't want to stop right away either. I'll agree that drums aren't the worst thing to ever hit the road. I have 11x3's on my 66 Plymouth and they are staying put.

The term "servo" is misleading. Drums DO have a certain amount of servo action, but the more correct description would be "cam" action, as drums will lock up at a certain point of application as they "overcenter" their modulation capacity, even without additional pedal pressure.

Your statement that "the drum brake is a better system mechanically" is proven to be false by time, and hundreds of millions of cars produced with disks, that can out stop even the best drum systems by sometimes half the distance, while giving years of service (vs. a few stops by a drum system designed to compete with the disks).

To infer that disks are negatively affected by water (or heat), anywhere near what drums are, indicates that you have no experience with disks, or are trying to make an argument that is proven to be false.

Anyone who thinks drums are as good as disks is wrong. There is no other way to say it.

If you want to keep your disks "just because", then fine, but to try to sway others to that point of view, or try to tell others that drums are better, or to fool yourselves (at the risk to others on the road), that drums are as good as disks, is irresponsible.

Some things are not a "matter of opinion". Sometimes facts are facts, and in the case of disks superiority over drums, irrefutable.
 
qship.............
That was the 2nd or 3rd stop from 100 mph. 3 stops in succession...

Remember, there were 3 late teens boys in the house.

0 to 100 to 0 to 100 to 0 to 100 to 0.

At about 40 mph on the 2nd stop they started to fade a bit but they still stopped and at about 60 from the 3rd stop.

How many people ever do that to their car ??

The biggest problem we had with them was the drums had hard spots in them and they were manual adjust only.

Just because a car has drums on it does not mean they should be taken off the road.

Now design a set of disc brakes for a big truck that are as trouble free as the drums are.

I used to drive a semi that was used for developing air screw disc brakes by Bendix.
Imagine sewer lid sized discs glowing orange going down the Grapevine at night..all 10 discs !!

That was in 1985 and they never took off.
 
Again ... The rare, and problem prone, cop sintered iron drum system, are no more akin to standard drum brakes, than is a pro stock car to a Honda civic.

I used the sintered iron drum systems on my race cars back when I used to race, and I can more than agree that they can haul the freight down from 130+ MPH quite well, but cracked drums were a standard, weekly, replacement item.

If you are experiencing any kind of brake fade, I would caution you to replace the drums as I would be willing to bet money that they are cracked -- which is why you are probably experiencing reduced stopping power.

As for big trucks, they must use air for brake pressure. Without an electronic/mechanical assist system, disks will never work reliably enough for an air system .--- Does this indicate that drums are better at braking? No chance.

The space shuttle uses disk brakes. Cars should also, as anything less is dangerous to yourself, and others.

You might as well try to argue that driving "just a little bit" drunk is OK. Drums belong on museum cars, not on the road.
 
If done this on 3 cars.Use stock disc spindles and you can buy everything else at Advance auto to do the conversion.
 
-----------------
The fact is the drum brake is a better system mechanically because it has servo action. Discs don't have that feature and rely strictly on pressure to stop the rotor, however they do just fine and are not prone to locking up. Discs do run cooler than drums and that is a big advantage. Regarding the water issue, I've had a few cases where wet discs didn't want to stop right away either. I'll agree that drums aren't the worst thing to ever hit the road. I have 11x3's on my 66 Plymouth and they are staying put.

The term "servo" is misleading. Drums DO have a certain amount of servo action, but the more correct description would be "cam" action, as drums will lock up at a certain point of application as they "overcenter" their modulation capacity, even without additional pedal pressure. Saying that discs are not prone to locking up implies that drums are - or at least that was my intent. Your description is good

Your statement that "the drum brake is a better system mechanically" is proven to be false by time, and hundreds of millions of cars produced with disks, that can out stop even the best drum systems by sometimes half the distance, while giving years of service (vs. a few stops by a drum system designed to compete with the disks). Most likely because discs dissipate heat better. I should have chosen my words better. By better system I mean there is more going on inside a drum than just the wheel cyl pushing the shoes apart.

To infer that disks are negatively affected by water (or heat), anywhere near what drums are Nope, never said that

Anyone who thinks drums are as good as disks is wrong. There is no other way to say it. I never said they were as good overall

If you want to keep your disks "just because", then fine, but to try to sway others to that point of view, or try to tell others that drums are better, or to fool yourselves (at the risk to others on the road), that drums are as good as disks, is irresponsible.

Some things are not a "matter of opinion". Sometimes facts are facts, and in the case of disks superiority over drums, irrefutable.[/QUOTE]


I am not making any claim that drums are better but only pointing out the differences between them and discs. Many people have driven and raced cars with drum brakes and lived to tell about it. It's been my personal experience that for average driving properly sized and functioning drums do the job.
 
more brake rotor info

I came across some info while online today so I thought I'd share it with all of you. It clarifies the differences in flat vs vented vs cross drilled rotors with pros and cons of each.

This clarifies a little of what I posted before about the cross drilled rotors, but I stand corrected on the heat dissipation reasoning. This article claims the effect of the surface area for flat vs cross-drilled is negligible, but also states that cross drilled holes can eventually develop microcracks. Based on what I'm reading here, I think overall I prefer vented rotors. They give some heat and gas dissipation, a bit better friction against the pads, but shouldn't have as short of a life as the cross drilled rotors.

http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible.html

Rotor technology.
If a brake rotor was a single cast chunk of steel, it would have terrible heat dissipation properties and leave nowhere for the vapourised gas to go. Because of this, brake rotors are typically modified with all manner of extra design features to help them cool down as quickly as possible as well as dissapate any gas from between the pads and rotors. The following diagram shows some examples of rotor types with the various modification that can be done to them to help them create more friction, disperse more heat more quickly, and ventilate gas. From left to right.
Different styles of disc brake rotor

1: Basic brake rotor. 2: Grooved rotor - the grooves give more bite and thus more friction as they pass between the brake pads They also allow gas to vent from between the pads and the rotor. 3: Grooved, drilled rotor - the drilled holes again give more bite, but also allow air currents (eddies) to blow through the brake disc to assist cooling and ventilating gas. 4: Dual ventilated rotors - same as before but now with two rotors instead of one, and with vanes in between them to generate a vortex which will cool the rotors even further whilst trying to actually 'suck' any gas away from the pads.
An important note about drilled rotors: Drilled rotors are typically only found (and to be used on) race cars. The drilling weakens the rotors and typically results in microfractures to the rotor. On race cars this isn't a problem - the brakes are changed after each race or weekend. But on a road car, this can eventually lead to brake rotor failure - not what you want. I only mention this because of a lot of performance suppliers will supply you with drilled rotors for street cars without mentioning this little fact.

Big rotors.
You know I've been drumming into you the whole mechanism that causes you to stop? How does it apply to bigger brake rotors; a common sports car upgrade? Well sports cars and race bikes typically have much bigger discs or rotors than your average family saloon car. The reason again is to do with heat and friction. A bigger rotor has more material in it so it can absorb more heat. More material also means a larger surface area, which as well as meaning more area for the pads to generate friction with, also translates to better heat dissipation. On top of that, the larger rotors mean that the brake pads make contact further away from the axle of rotation. This provides a larger mechanical advantage to resist the turning of the rotor itself. To best illustrate how this works, imagine a spinning steel disc on an axle in front of you. If you clamped your thumbs either side of the disc close to the middle, your thumbs would heat up very quickly and you'd need to push pretty hard to generate the friction required to slow the disc down. Now imagine doing the same thing but clamping your thumbs together close to the outer rim of the disc. The disc will stop spinning much more quickly and your thumbs won't get as hot. That, in a nutshell explains the whole principle behind why bigger rotors = better stopping power.
Taking it one step further, composite brake rotors, as found on high-end Ferraris, the McLaren F1, and most F1 race cars, are even better again at heat transfer.
 
very affordable disc kit from ssbc (156) comes w/ everything at the wheels, a breeze to install,bled the brakes and excellent pedal feel
 

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Hi all. You can get rebuilt 4 piston calipers here:
http://www.calipersonline.com/
I'm running a set on my 69 road runner which was factory equipped with the Bendix setup. This guy says he is the only person who can re-sleeve previously sleeved calipers so I sent him my set (which had been previously sleeved) and he sent me a rebuilt set. They've been on the car since '03 and I have yet to have a problem with them. I also looked at new 2 piece OEM rotors but the price was too steep so I got a set of 1 piece rotors and they've worked without a problem as well.
 
Hi all. You can get rebuilt 4 piston calipers here:
http://www.calipersonline.com/
I'm running a set on my 69 road runner which was factory equipped with the Bendix setup. This guy says he is the only person who can re-sleeve previously sleeved calipers so I sent him my set (which had been previously sleeved) and he sent me a rebuilt set. They've been on the car since '03 and I have yet to have a problem with them. I also looked at new 2 piece OEM rotors but the price was too steep so I got a set of 1 piece rotors and they've worked without a problem as well.

why in the world would you want 2 piece rotors? The 1 piece rotors are stronger since there are not 2 pieces welded together
 
very affordable disc kit from ssbc (156) comes w/ everything at the wheels, a breeze to install,bled the brakes and excellent pedal feel

awesome. Thanks for the photo. I really wanted to order the SS brakes, but please note, I talked with them and their kits only work if you car has drum brake hubs in front. If you car was a disc brake car like mine that you just want to upgrade to better disc brakes like SSBC, you first need to find some original drum brake hubs. That's the only reason I ended up ordering the Master Power Brakes and I hate the pedal feel. I hope in 100 miles they break in and the pedal feel is better. Did your brakes feel great right away or did they require some miles to brake them in?
 
My GTX has the factory 10.78 disk brakes and it stops pretty well. Its 3700 lbs with me in the car. Problem is new cars stop on a dime, even the cheapest junk. I like driving my car. I'm upgrading to 11.75 mopar rotors (diplomat) on 73-76 spindles. If starting from scratch or near scratch move up to the 11.75 and leave the little brakes behind.

my .02
 
awesome. Thanks for the photo. I really wanted to order the SS brakes, but please note, I talked with them and their kits only work if you car has drum brake hubs in front. If you car was a disc brake car like mine that you just want to upgrade to better disc brakes like SSBC, you first need to find some original drum brake hubs. That's the only reason I ended up ordering the Master Power Brakes and I hate the pedal feel. I hope in 100 miles they break in and the pedal feel is better. Did your brakes feel great right away or did they require some miles to brake them in?

took a little to get all the air out of the lines,but after that the pedal was right there with no squish at all,drum brake spindels should be fairly easy to obtain. mac.
 
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