Don't swap in a modern engine or efi for driveability

[Purepony]

Thx
please re-read my post maybe ?
because maybe it wasn't clear in my post.... I HAVE ridden in and DRIVEN plenty of the new stuff ?
and that was my point....so have my friends that own the new stuff have ridden in my old R/T ?
and we pretty much all agree ?
you are not 'gaining' anything in 'new style drivability' transplanting a new Engine into a 50 year old car/suspension and support systems ?
Different Cars... Different Genres....
the old stuff done/maintained well is plenty capable of not just a very satisfying ride.,... but also extremely good reliability ?

I read your post and I still say drive an old car with the new stuff not a new stuff car !
It’s not that same. You can’t compare a 5.3 Silverado work truck to a 67-81 camaro for example with an ls swap

Oh and also dont ride in one, go actually drive one. Sit in the drivers seat and drive it

 

[F4R/T]

I wouldn’t say fuel injection has cut down on engine wear by itself. Over drive is the improvement, a well tuned carb can match the fuel injection for air fuel mixture ratio both are truly in the hands of the tuner but to drop 800-1000 RPM off your final drive ratio reduces wear the greatest IMO. A well tuned carter avs is reliable as the day is long and simple, no laptop required. KISS ! Keep it simple stupid !

 

[HawkRod]

I like having a close ratio 4 gear.....with an OD. I think Passon makes one? I hear the wait time is long. A 3 speed with OD doesn't do it for me....and yes, I've driven them. Do you have the Passon 4 speed + OD?

I have the Passon A-855. It is essentially a hemi A-833 with a .70 overdrive added as 5th gear. It works great and it installed with absolutely zero modifications needed to the car. Best of all worlds, with the shifter in the stock location in my 70 Road Runner!

Yes, the wait has been super long - I waited 5 years. He has also had issues with the American made internals. I think maybe those issues are fixed now, but I don't really know.

 

[SuperRatBastid]

Is it possible to get your carbed engine to idle smoothly at an efficient air fuel ratio like 13.5:1? And, have it cruise efficiently at an efficient a/f ratio of around 15:1? And, have it run wide open at a an optimal a/f ratio of 12.5:1? And, have it optimize the ignition timing to take engine load and throttle position in to account to nail the most optimal ignition timing for the engine? And, do all that with a smooth transition from idle to cruise to wot, with no bogs, flat spots, or hesitation?

The answer is sure you can. But at what cost? Carb tuning is no easy task. Creating the most efficient timing curve is not a simple procedure. Paying some one to do this for you won't be cheap.

EFI can do all of this with some easy to do key strokes or on a hand held controller. If you have to pay someone to do it for you it wont be cheap either.

The next question is, why do any of that when the car runs great the way it is.

Yes, you can. And what does a real EFI setup cost. It ain’t cheap. And then how much time do you spend learning to tune the EFI? If a guy spends half that time learning carburetion you can do all you ask.

 

[Kern Dog]

I wouldn’t say fuel injection has cut down on engine wear by itself. Over drive is the improvement, a well tuned carb can match the fuel injection for air fuel mixture ratio both are truly in the hands of the tuner but to drop 800-1000 RPM off your final drive ratio reduces wear the greatest IMO. A well tuned carter avs is reliable as the day is long and simple, no laptop required. KISS ! Keep it simple stupid !

I had an 84 Chevy C-10 truck with a 305 and 4 barrel Quadrajet. It went 369,000 miles before spinning 3 rod bearings.
Yeah. Carbureted and it lasted that long. A properly tuned carbureted car is far simpler, far cheaper and much easier to diagnose and fix. Overdrive was a huge improvement in drivability. The Tremec 5 speed I swapped into my red car was a dramatic change. Road noise and vibration reduction was impressive. From 3000 rpms at 70 to 1900-1950? Holy crap...that alone made the car much more livable.

 

[Purepony]

Yes, you can. And what does a real EFI setup cost. It ain’t cheap. And then how much time do you spend learning to tune the EFI? If a guy spends half that time learning carburetion you can do all you ask.

You really don’t need to tune it yourself if you use the stock efi
There are several tuners who can dyno tune it

 

[YY1]

I also don't get the statement I've read many times that 318 powered cars "have difficulty keeping up with traffic".

That's complete BS.

 

[Bladeruner69]

I'm at a cross road right now with the T-56 Magnum vs a Gear Vendors unit on an 833. The GV is 3 grand! I already have an 833 but it looks like it came out of a creek bed but the insides look nice. Still plan on rebuilding it if I'm going to use it but.....I know there's going to me floor clearance issues with the 56. Gotta win the lottery. Dangit

Sidebar from the main subject but to your crossroad. I had a Gearvendor in my 4.10 rearend '69. Much better RMP at freeway speeds but I am in the middle of converting to a T-56 right now. I love rowing gears, just makes driving more fun. Even lower RPM on the freeway. Getting some lost horsepower back that was lost with the GV. The downside is the floor modifications. I don't have a problem with the actual hacking of the floor pan. My car is so far beyond a stock restoration that it that does not matter. The problem is the custom metal fabrication and the associated money. I got sticker shock when the body shop was done with my new tunnel. Big sticker shock.

 

[Runcharger]

Hack away. IMO 6th gear in this car is useless other than giving a bit better fuel mileage on flat ground.

 

[SuperRatBastid]

You really don’t need to tune it yourself if you use the stock efi
There are several tuners who can dyno tune it

And there are carb and dyno guys that can tune a carb for you.

 

[70-BigBlock]

I'm at a cross road right now with the T-56 Magnum vs a Gear Vendors unit on an 833. The GV is 3 grand! I already have an 833 but it looks like it came out of a creek bed but the insides look nice. Still plan on rebuilding it if I'm going to use it but.....I know there's going to me floor clearance issues with the 56. Gotta win the lottery. Dangit

I went with a A-518 swap myself to get overdrive. There are some mods to do but they sell all the parts now (I had to get some pieces made), and the difference is night and day. I also got a locking torque converter.

Mine was 3 on the tree already, and going to manual would have been a LOT more $$$ and work. Then I would have to swap out the bench seats and get a console.

The GV was an option too - once installed, the A-518 should be easy to fix / replace if it has issues and any tranny shop should be able to do it with no issues. Maybe the GV would be as easy - I just don't know.

 

[Sky Blue]

Interesting thread. Thanks for all your comments. My 1966 Plymouth 383 with Carter 4-bbl, all original with over 200,000 miles on it, is about to be completely rebuilt. In all those miles over 50 years the only thing I ever did was replace the acceleration pump in the Carb. Otherwise it never gave me any problems from -25 below zero to 100+ above. But this time around I think I am going to go with EFI. Disk brakes on front too at a minimum. I've experienced brake fade in the mountains and never want that feeling again. Stainless steel exhaust too. And if it can be done, a 6-way power seat too. I'm getting old.

 

[JG71B]

A relative has a 67 Dart GT with a stock 2012 5.7, home tweaked 518 with manual vb and push button OD. Runs 12.20's at the track and gets 22mpg getting there. You aint doin that in your carbed Cutlass....thats why! Not to mention easy starting hot or cold, no choke, gas smell, better response, smoother acceleration and is more efficient with efi. You don't have to agree you just need to see it for yourself

 

[747mopar]

I also don't get the statement I've read many times that 318 powered cars "have difficulty keeping up with traffic".

That's complete BS.

Haven't heard that said but a good running 318 ain't no slouch, pretty peppy little motor!

 

[Purepony]

Haven't heard that said but a good running 318 ain't no slouch, pretty peppy little motor!

And reliable

 

[Cojohnso1]

The next question is, why do any of that when the car runs great the way it is.

Thats my delema? I have a nice driver quality '69 GTX that's really not close to numbers matching. (But all period correct.) Thus ideal for a specialty build. I passed up on a built SRT 392 top to bottom including engine management system on the pure notion that I can't get myself to pull a very good running 440 to pursue an upgrade for all the reasons you stated. Just for a 90 HP jump? Let alone all the work that wasn't included? Including (But not limited to) fuel delivery, K-frame modification, exhaust retro fit, wiring mods. Just to name a few. Then hopefully all the 50 year old lights and dash components cooperate? I'm estimating at least $10g for just build support? (Not including engine cost.) Not to mention headaches.

Or? Put $10g of engine upgrades to existing 440 (512 stroker?) With a Passon 5 speed and Dana gear upgrade to 4:10? And blow the doors off any Scat back/Hellcrap out there?

These modern engines work so well in conjunction with the 6 speed trans. Of course they do. Because they are in their powerband faster and longer than yesterday's builds. Give my existing 440 that same transmission? A full second faster in 1/4 mi with no performance upgrade. At least? A built 440 would tear that transmission up in no time. The moment it felt old school torque off the line.

P.S. EFI can only match carburetor's atomization efficiency at best? There is an old saying. "Had EFI been discovered and used first? And then someone brought to market the first carburetor? They would have been hailed as a genius!" (Although I will concede that today's EFI has all but matched carburetors efficiency.)

JMO. But I bet I'm right?

 

[Cranky]

A relative has a 67 Dart GT with a stock 2012 5.7, home tweaked 518 with manual vb and push button OD. Runs 12.20's at the track and gets 22mpg getting there. You aint doin that in your carbed Cutlass....thats why! Not to mention easy starting hot or cold, no choke, gas smell, better response, smoother acceleration and is more efficient with efi. You don't have to agree you just need to see it for yourself

Keep in mind that many of us own the newer iron that came from the factory with what you mentioned. Me....my daily junk starts with a 95 Dakota and a 96 Dakota lol Oh yeah....also have a 97 Dodge 2500 with a diesel. The only electronic stuff on that one is for the transmission but I'm somewhat familiar with the more modern stuff. Also Cojohnso1 in the above post probably said how many of us feel about our older stuff. I for one find it a joy to tinker with the older stuff and tweak on it to make it run nice and do what they did when new. It's also a stress reliever for me....when they are not being a headache lol but for me, nothing much on them caused me headaches like the new stuff has.

Haven't heard that said but a good running 318 ain't no slouch, pretty peppy little motor!

Several years ago a buddy and I threw some left over parts at his 72 318 Demon and ended up with an unmatched combo. The worse part was the stock converter. Neither one of us wanted to pull the trans plus we didn't have a converter anyways and he didn't feel like buying one so the car ended up being a slug off the line with a 2.2 60 foot but once it hit 3k it was on fire to the tune of 102 mph and 13.51 ET. No one believed it was a teen but no one wanted to lay any money on the fender lol

 

[Cojohnso1]

This is my '74 Duster. With a built 451 reverse valve body 727. With a spooled Mosier gear and axled 4.56:1 8 3/4" rear. The whole car cost is $10g. (Probably a little more today. As even A-body prices has gone up) But never the less? I have had 2 Hellcats line up at the track. Once amber light turned on? Never saw them again. And that's on it's 11 sec flat pump gas build.

 

[Cranky]

This is my '74 Duster. With a built 451 reverse valve body 727. With a spooled Mosier gear and axled 4.56:1 8 3/4" rear. The whole car cost is $10g. (Probably a little more today. As even A-body prices has gone up) But never the less? I have had 2 Hellcats line up at the track. Once amber light turned on? Never saw them again. And that's on it's 11 sec flat pump gas build.

View attachment 1141764

If the car's name was Childsplay having a pic in front of the swing set would make a great one!

 

[Cojohnso1]

If the car's name was Childsplay having a pic in front of the swing set would make a great one!

It's name "Recycler" because a small scrap yard owned it. Some farmer before them made the steel tilt front end. Very clever design and retrofit. It was his first. And I guess he now does that as a side gig. I have rebuilt the 451 with New rods/pistons (simular cam, but new.) to support the Brodex B1/BS aluminum heads replacement. (Replaced some decent ported 452s) compression went from open chamber head 10.5:1 to closed chamber head 12.4:1 compression. Thus now running a Holley 1050 carb metered for E-85. (To accommodate the compression increase.) And that's the current state. I tried one pass on new setup just before Covid hit. A little highway testing certainly suggested a nice performance increase. I let go the 2-step button on green? And the driveshaft exploded. (Damn, I didn't think about it's new weak link? Lol.)

So hopefully Very soon will try again. With a driveshaft that is to hemi specs. (Thicker gage and about 6lbs heavier.)