Help me spend my money wisely...another engine build thread

[GearAddict]

Surprise you didn't mention this thread, lots of good input from super-bee and HT413 among others on 451's :headbang:

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?82619-My-BUDGET-451-build-finally

thanks I've been reading through Hts thread, definetly got me thinking about a 451

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Don't know if you would be interested but I have a 69 dated 383 h.p. motor with 906 heads I'd let go of it and the box of parts for $500 ,there's a crank and water pump housing I belive some brackets and pulleys, oil pan, pistons and rods are there no intake valve covers or carb I can get a parts list if interested good block and heads crank looks good too .p.m. if interested
I'm on the other cost in fl. About 3 hrs away good luck ether way

Much thanks for the offer but if I'm rebuilding a 383, I'll most likely use my current core

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It shouldn't cost you any where near $900 to change to a 3.55 or 3.23 if you already have the Dana 60!

I wish that were true... Maybe it's my ignorance on Dana's but the 2 reputable shops I spoke to say that the carrier has to be changed to get the gearing down that far (from 4.56 to 3.55 or 3.23)... I was quoted 1,200-1,300 parts and labor.... if someone knows different, please let me know

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Find a core 440 they range from 2-500 bucks around us. Put some flat top pistons in it some decent rod bolts, balance it well and run a quality balancer on it also deck it so its not down in the hole, put a decent aluminum head on eddie e streets, stealths, garlits or even hughes prepped 915s run a decent spring on it a small roller cam and be done with it. Sell the rest of the parts you have for the b motor. This can be done easily for 5,000 bucks.

I like this as an option...hmm

One thing you all could help me to understand is what I should expect to spend with a machine shop for... A. standard machine work for a big block and B. Additional cost for machining for a 451 stroker. Not including assy.

I know I need to start calling more shops, only one I've spoken to so far is Dvorak and they are very pricy, but also have a good reputation.

 

[451Mopar]

The cost of the gear swap is mostly labor, it takes several hours to correctly setup the Dana 60 ring and pinion because everything is shimmed and presses on/in.
You also need to know which carrier you have to get the correct thickness gears. The gears and bearings are not very expensive, should be less than $400 for parts.
I did my own gear swap, but buying the tools cost quite a bit, so if your only going to do it once, may as well pay someone to do it.

My old 451 stroker used a 440 crank turned down for the 400 block, reconditioned 440 rods with ARP bolts, and custom Ross pistons. The lighweight pistons are what helps take the load off the stock rods. What you save by using the stock 440 crank and rods, is partly eaten by additional machine work, the cost of the rod bolts, and maybe needing a custom piston. The first upgrade to this basic combination is aftermarket rods that have many advantages over stock rod, with better materials, bronze floating pins, 0.990" pin size and the larger 7/16" rod bolts. The 0.990" pin size is what most of the off the shelf stroker pistons use, so you may be able to offset the cost of the new rods by using less expensive (not custom) pistons. So now all that remains the the cost difference between using a stock stroker crank. The stroker cranks are around $750, but you may have it least $250+ in making a stock 440 crank fit the block. So for about an extra $500 you could just get a stroker kit with a stronger crank, and choice of several stroke lengths. The only catch here is the assumption the stroker kits will not need any additional machine work.
I have built two stroker engines using the 440 source kits and both were good on clearances and balance, but some of the rod pin bushings had to be honed slightly, and I had to chamfer a rod bearing that was too close to the crank radius (to little rod side clearance.)
All I needed the Machine shop to do is clean the block, align hone the mains, and overbore and hone the cylinders. Have them install the cam bearings if you don't have the tool for that.

Anyhow, just food for thought. The stroker kit route will push your budget $2250 for the kit, but it includes the bearings and rings too. Add the block machine work, and you will have $3,000+ in the short block.

 

[Coronet 14]

The only bonus I ever get is the ones from my Doctors. Blood test results are ok.

 

[GearAddict]

The cost of the gear swap is mostly labor, it takes several hours to correctly setup the Dana 60 ring and pinion because everything is shimmed and presses on/in.
You also need to know which carrier you have to get the correct thickness gears. The gears and bearings are not very expensive, should be less than $400 for parts.
I did my own gear swap, but buying the tools cost quite a bit, so if your only going to do it once, may as well pay someone to do it.

My old 451 stroker used a 440 crank turned down for the 400 block, reconditioned 440 rods with ARP bolts, and custom Ross pistons. The lighweight pistons are what helps take the load off the stock rods. What you save by using the stock 440 crank and rods, is partly eaten by additional machine work, the cost of the rod bolts, and maybe needing a custom piston. The first upgrade to this basic combination is aftermarket rods that have many advantages over stock rod, with better materials, bronze floating pins, 0.990" pin size and the larger 7/16" rod bolts. The 0.990" pin size is what most of the off the shelf stroker pistons use, so you may be able to offset the cost of the new rods by using less expensive (not custom) pistons. So now all that remains the the cost difference between using a stock stroker crank. The stroker cranks are around $750, but you may have it least $250+ in making a stock 440 crank fit the block. So for about an extra $500 you could just get a stroker kit with a stronger crank, and choice of several stroke lengths. The only catch here is the assumption the stroker kits will not need any additional machine work.
I have built two stroker engines using the 440 source kits and both were good on clearances and balance, but some of the rod pin bushings had to be honed slightly, and I had to chamfer a rod bearing that was too close to the crank radius (to little rod side clearance.)
All I needed the Machine shop to do is clean the block, align hone the mains, and overbore and hone the cylinders. Have them install the cam bearings if you don't have the tool for that.

Anyhow, just food for thought. The stroker kit route will push your budget $2250 for the kit, but it includes the bearings and rings too. Add the block machine work, and you will have $3,000+ in the short block.

Thanks, I appreciate the the input... I have been trolling the parts boards over the past week looking to see if I could cobble together parts and I saw a set of new 6.76" H-beam rods rods for $360 from a member selling on one of the sites recently.. seemed like a good deal if heading the stroker rout.

Are there any big drawbacks to going using a 440 crank and turning it down for the 400 compared to a new crank?

 

[71airgrabberRR]

The old Direct Connection book I have states that you shouldn't turn down the mains to fit a low deck big block. The reasoning they state is that the crankshafts are hardened from the factory and this hardening only goes so deep into the metal. Instead they recommend opening up the bearing area to accommodate RB main bearings and line boring the block.

However, most machine shops around here can't do that and get the bearing locating tang properly set. Now I'm sure they intended this for "all out" race only engines. I'm sure there are a lot of people who have turned their cranks down and not had any problems. The RB cranks are plenty stout and have a lot of material on the mains. Plus turning the rod journals offset is the principle behind grinding a Stroker crank to begin with.

I'm sure someone here who has done this will chime in. Ask HT413 or IQ52 for the scoop. I'll bet they can give you some good responses.

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But if you decide to go this route I would recommend using a forged crank instead of a cast one.

 

[69 GTX]

If it were me I'd think about a 5 or 6 speed tranny. My thinking is then you can run lower gears but still drive on the interstate at a moderate RPM. Yes the tranny is pricey but then you can go back to your 300 budget for smaller improvements. If your only looking for 4-500 HP that should be a easy deal with a mild 440. Just my 2 cents

 

[451Mopar]

stock 440 crank, turned down is OK. My old 451 that used the turned down 440 and 440 LY rods came from Muscle Motors (back around 1990), and I did not have any problems with it, but I think the engine was only around 550HP?

 

[Hemirunner]

I wish that were true... Maybe it's my ignorance on Dana's but the 2 reputable shops I spoke to say that the carrier has to be changed to get the gearing down that far (from 4.56 to 3.55 or 3.23)... I was quoted 1,200-1,300 parts and labor.... if someone knows different, please let me know

You'll need a carrier change going from a 4.56 to a 3.54. You're stuck there as no one makes a 3.23 dana 60 gear set to my knowledge.

 

[66Satellite47]

The 400 block/440 crank works fine. I built two in the early '80's, one 400 rods, one 440 rods, good bolts. Turning the 440 crank mains is no problem, they're not hardened (only Hemi), it's normal to .010 under isn't it, besides then you get the advantage of the radiused fillet instead of stock undercut. Bore to 4.375 or 4.380. If you keep the rpm below 6500 it'll live fine (I ran mine much higher and rpm is hard on parts). Lighter pistons are better. Heads make the power. I'm new to alum heads, but sure seem like easier to make a streetable combo with good power. Too bad you're so far away, I've got the machined 400 block waiting for a crank & pistons. Change the gears in the Dana, you can sell 4.56 & the fancy carrier for much more than a low number carrier will cost you. Good luck.

 

[GearAddict]

You'll need a carrier change going from a 4.56 to a 3.54. You're stuck there as no one makes a 3.23 dana 60 gear set to my knowledge.

Thanks, that was my understanding...

I have seen 3.23 gears for sale, but I would most likely go with the 3.55's

Strange has these on their site for Dana60

US Strange / Getrag H226 / 3.23

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Too bad you're so far away, I've got the machined 400 block waiting for a crank & pistons. Change the gears in the Dana, you can sell 4.56 & the fancy carrier for much more than a low number carrier will cost you. Good luck.

C'mon... you're in St. Paul and I work for 3M, surely we can get it on the back of a truck without anyone noticing :icon_mrgreen:

 

[IQ52]

Thanks! That's a nice price... I do have a friend with a 400 block in good shape (needs to be machined) for $50.. I suppose I could add 2 more options.

E) 451 from Muscle Motors on sale for $5600 (no idea what shipping will cost me).. a little outside of my budget, but for a fully built dyno'd motor, maybe I can scrape from somewhere...dunno

F) build my own 451... $50 block, used 440 crank, rods $300? and new pistons $600...ect.. or stroker kit $2,300.. Machine work $2,000? use the rest of the stuff from my 383

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Sounds like a popular option.

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I believe you understand my current sickness.. a severe anemic deficiency with the belief that cubic inches is the solution.

1 for option C (Aluminum heads would have to come later).

Please note that the fully dyno tuned Muscle Motors 451 comes without a carburetor or distributor. It's what I refer to as voodoo tuning.

 

[Speedbird]

Since you live in Tampa what about a trip to SC and let them build the 383 which you already have. Overnight or long day? You could have some left over from that 5K if you go with the basic performance upgrade and you could have face time with the builders.

http://www.cmengines.com/se2/oemupgradelongblocks.aspx


You might want to check with them on this option.
http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemid=123

 

[GearAddict]

Since you live in Tampa what about a trip to SC and let them build the 383 which you already have. Overnight or long day? You could have some left over from that 5K if you go with the basic performance upgrade and you could have face time with the builders.

http://www.cmengines.com/se2/oemupgradelongblocks.aspx


You might want to check with them on this option.
http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemid=123

Thanks, I've thought about CME, I wonder how much providing a core will knock off the price? Maybe I'll give them a call.

As for the Muscle Motors 451... It's got me thinking about breaking my budget.



Thanks for all the posts guys. I'm still undecided, but I have a ton more helpfull info to think about in making that decision...

 

[RamNBee]

My 2Cents, if you cruise the car mostly, then build it with that in mind. 383 gets better fuel economy than 440 or stroker and can be a lot of fun on the street. Change the gearing to something more cruise friendly, freshen up your 383 and go enjoy! You may even have money left over.

 

[moper]

My last engine customer has a Challenger. Had a 383, auto with 4500 stall, 4.30s, and ran high 11s with headers, large exhaust, etc. He had similar goals: lower the cruise rpm, have more power at peak, and make it more driveable. His choice was to take the 383 he had and stroke it to 496 using the MM kit. In terms of your needs - I think you need to include two things: increased stroke, and higher (numerically lower) gears. The Dana 60 isn't hard to do if you have the tools (case spreader, rotating torque wrench, "checking bearing, and a press). but being a one and done - have a shop do it. What's left is your engine budget. A 440 will require exhaust changes - the blocks taller and many times the 383 stuff won't clear everything right. The 400 will not. I'm certain a 451 long block can be built reliably, using parts you have (or the core engine has) for less than $5K. But you have to realize it takes money to get a reliable strong engine of any size. I don't think $4K will be enough for the long block, and then you still have the intake, carb, cam setup, etc to buy. I see regearing your rear running close to $1K at a quality shop (look for a 4wd shop - they'll have done hundreds of D60s). I would build a 451, using stock rods, hyper pistons, and the 440 Sorce B 3.75 crank. Stud the mains, have the block blueprinted, and the assembly properly performance balanced (meaning NOT by 440 Source). Use whatever heads you have or give the best static compression. Expect to completely redo the heads but again, by a performance shop that has good equipment. Stock parts will go a very long way with great machining. Average machining will not get great parts to work at their peak. Reuse your tin, get a cam in the 225-230° @ .050 range, and you'll have around 440hp, 480tq pump gas package that drops where the 383 sits now. A 383 can make power - but it's at the expense of idle, rpm, and streetability.

 

[GearAddict]

Thanks Moper I think you have confirmed the direction I was leaning towards. I'm going to take care of the reared gearing first, headed in the 3.54:1 range and then start building up parts for the 451.