How should a reproduction fender tag w/options should look like?

[Budnicks]

do this

unless you have a "real" build sheet, for that specific car
that says exactly what it was equipped with from the factory
it will always be a fake fender tag

or maybe

 

[fesser]

do this

unless you have a "real" build sheet, for that specific car
that says exactly what it was equipped with from the factory
it will always be a fake fender tag

View attachment 1789113

or maybe

For 68 and up I completely agree. I know my 68 Coronet was red. I know it had AC. I know it had a 440 magnum, and I know that it had a buddy bucket and not a console. I say "I know" based on knowing that the car was stored for about 30 years after being used as a beater drag racer and it had primer over a blue paint job, but red was found underneath it all, and in nooks and crannys not normally accessed to do a color change. As for AC "I know" because of the interior parts and the firewall, and the layers of crud and ratshit on top of the ac unit. And I say "I know" for the buddy buckets because they had the same 70's diamond tuck on the seats as the buddy bucket and all of the bracket welds were painted exactly the same as the floor. Could these things have been faked? Sure, if you believe that someone would go to that much trouble 30 years ago to make a pretty blah car. All that said, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable putting an exact reproduction fender tag on the car even if it only listed those things. Not saying I am right or someone else is wrong, but I don't know what was on the original tag, and it is gone. Now for the slippery slope part...on my 67 GTX I was able to get a photocopy of the IBM card from Stellantis and had it "decoded". According to the decode, the 67 was also not especially interesting, all though it appears that it should have come with headrests, no console, no buddy buckets, and no radio. I think, if I had more than one independent decoding of the IBM card, and they were consistent, I would be okay having a reproduced fender tag showing what the IBM says was the blueprint for the car. Even at that, I think I would only get one of the tags that some people make with a visual indicator stamped on the tag to show that it wasn't a factory tag. As we all have seen this topic comes up from time to time and I doubt anyone completely changes their mind on the topic but discussing it civilly can't hurt. As a side note, I apologize to MigsBig for the long post that doesn't even begin to answer what his tag would look like, because honestly, I have no idea.

 

[MarPar]

Opinion vary vastly what you should do...

Like this phony BS, 4 dr cuda' fake, with seemingly real looking fender tag

View attachment 1789112
of this allegedly

View attachment 1789120
That was never built ever, not even by the mail room guys memory

but was built like this BS a B body with 4 drs to look like a 70 4dr cuda

View attachment 1789123

 

[kiwigtx]

View attachment 1789365

 

[Budnicks]

View attachment 1789365

Here's another that hasn't been seen in a while

 

[Budnicks]

View attachment 1789367

& I know the guy who came up with it
it was pretty funny at the time, still funny here....

 

[Budnicks]

or this one

 

[pnora]

Another.

 

[Migsbig]

Thanks for the help everyone. Looks like I got info I needed.

 

[70chall440]

I knew this would be a s@#t show as soon as I saw the thread title. Any mention of fender tags and the haters descend.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck! If the tag matches the car as presented then it is what it is.

People say "without the BS sheet or original tag it will never be correct" well how would you know without one of those 2 items? So the statement is moot because if the tag is made correctly no one could determine that it was a repro.

I hate to break it to some of you but there are some VERY high end restorations out there with reproduction tags (that don't have the afore mentioned BS or original tag).

This is only a big deal in the Mopar world and it is only a big deal because jackass collectors and "experts" made it a big deal. There is little reason that so many without tags want them because the high and mighty keep referencing the tags as some type of DNA or birth certificate and without one your car is less than those with tags.

Making a new FT is not making a new VIN, you cannot make a Hemi RT with just a FT. Yes you can make a Hemi RT 4 spd air grabber 6 way seat, etc. car with a FT BUT if the car has all that crap than it is what it is.

These cars all came down the same assembly line, there wasn't a special line for "high end" cars, they were just cars at the time but since collectors and investors got involved now there is all this crap. Back in the 70's and 80's we bought cars based on what the car was before us not what a tag said as that was irrelevant.

Lastly, if you want a repo tag you can get one but you just have to do the work to figure out what it should say and who will make it, the big name resto guys and experts (Galen) know exactly where to get them.

 

[69Coronetrt]

There is little reason that so many without tags want them because the high and mighty keep referencing the tags as some type of DNA or birth certificate and without one your car is less than those with tags.

Making a new FT is not making a new VIN, you cannot make a Hemi RT with just a FT. Yes you can make a Hemi RT 4 spd air grabber 6 way seat, etc. car with a FT BUT if the car has all that crap than it is what it is.

These cars all came down the same assembly line, there wasn't a special line for "high end" cars, they were just cars at the time but since collectors and investors got involved now there is all this crap. Back in the 70's and 80's we bought cars based on what the car was before us not what a tag said as that was irrelevant.

Lastly, if you want a repo tag you can get one but you just have to do the work to figure out what it should say and who will make it, the big name resto guys and experts (Galen) know exactly where to get them.

Because the FT is the most likely survivor to determine provenance. Broadcast sheets and wind stickers usually don't survive. Dealer records usually don't survive. Fender tags are, usually, durable and survive.

Fake fender tags induce fraud.

Poorly made fender tags bring into question the quality and accuracy of a restoration as well as the originality of the car. Was the car originally made as 440-6bll four speed or a /6 automatic? If the tag is the only surviving documentation, people care.

There are valid reasons people oppose badly remade or made up tags. The more high end the car, the more inducement and potential for fraud. No one cares about a 74 dart 4 door 318 tag. People care about 71 Hemi 'Coda convertible tags.

Originality and proof of originality is an aspect of value regardless whether we're talking about cars, comic books, guitars, vinyl records, paintings or any other collectible.

Here's an example of why some people care about bad tags. Someone took a T3 automatic and made it a B5 four speed "cause I WANTED to" (and perplexingly changed the VON). There's a big difference in value to the buyer.

 

[70chall440]

Here again, if the tag is made poorly than it is what it is, I do not see how this has any affect on whether a repo tag should or should not be made.

My point and opinion is that the tag should play little to no effect on determining the value of the car in theory as the car should be evaluated for what it is in the real time. However, this is not the case because collectors, investors and crooks (pretty much the same people) have made the tags some type of holy relic and are the first to criticize cars without them as well as praise cars with them.

You see this on this very forum every time someone even mentions getting a replacement/repo tag made. There is this stream of "I have mine and you should burn in hell if you get one made". The tag should not make the car and on lower end cars it makes zero difference but any cars of interest/value all of the haters come flying out.

So before it asked "why care then, why do you want/need a tag if it doesn't matter?" The answer to that is because this hobby has made a big deal out of having them. Go to any mopar show and you will find all manner of "code readers" walking about like they are someone talking about this code on a tag or that code. Many people without tags naturally then want one so they can be "in" and thus they come to this forum looking for advice and are met with a lot of hatred.

As to the fraud deal, sure a new tag could be made to depict a variety of options that the car was not made with originally, however how would you know? The answer is because the options are not there, thus the value of the car should reflect exactly that! In other words the value of a car should reflect what it is not what the tag says it was, but here again come the "investors" and "collectors" who talk all this smack about X option and Y number of cars made with these options; complete BS designed to make them money.

If you are going to pay $30K (I am cheap) or more on a classic Mopar muscle car then have the brains to do the research, know what it is supposed to look like or hire someone that does. If the tag says 4 speed and there is a 4 speed in the car, then look for what else should be there. If the car isn't right then it isn't right. The whole FT thing is about being uneducated and/or lazy in that too many people look there first and take it as proof.

Even the factory screwed up and put wrong codes or in many cases no codes. Again, walks like a duck...

 

[70chall440]

Oh and for the record, I am very sure that the OP on this was planning to do EXACTLY what all of the haters are afraid of, that is make a FT depicting all sorts of options (real or imagined). I find the "going to make a race car out of it" story weak at best because every racer I have ever known gave 2 craps about a FT.

This is further evidenced by the "1 of 12" statement meaning that the OP has definitely researched this. If this was truly a 1 of 12 BB RT 4 spd car it would not be going the race car route these days. That said, the "1 of 12" BS is at the VERY best a guess on anyone's part to include his highness galen.

One curious note, looking at the pics of the interior I could be wrong but I do not see the RT emblem on the dash after Charger.... hmmmm

 

[71RRHI]

I always wondered why is it that there are so many cars that are missing or have rusted out fender tags. But there seems to be a higher percentage of "high end" cars that have their tags, and the tag is in perfect condition then "high end" cars with missing or rusted out tags. Just food for thought.

 

[nitro_rat]

Anyone sourcing a tag has an agenda.

Not necessarily. A car needs a tag to be complete. It's not impossible to make a replica tag that's reasonalbly correct for a car that's original and mostly complete. I think it's fair to make a best guess (such as weather or not a tach was installed) as long as you're not intentionally trying to defraud anyone.

It's generally going to be possible to tell that the tag is a replica unless the car is fully restored and it's painted in place. But it's an entirely possible item to just remove with a screwdriver on any mopar. So, unless there's a build sheet to tie it all together there's no real way to trust what the tag says anyway...

 

[kiwigtx]

I knew this would be a s@#t show as soon as I saw the thread title. Any mention of fender tags and the haters descend.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck! If the tag matches the car as presented then it is what it is.

People say "without the BS sheet or original tag it will never be correct" well how would you know without one of those 2 items? So the statement is moot because if the tag is made correctly no one could determine that it was a repro.

I hate to break it to some of you but there are some VERY high end restorations out there with reproduction tags (that don't have the afore mentioned BS or original tag).

This is only a big deal in the Mopar world and it is only a big deal because jackass collectors and "experts" made it a big deal. There is little reason that so many without tags want them because the high and mighty keep referencing the tags as some type of DNA or birth certificate and without one your car is less than those with tags.

Making a new FT is not making a new VIN, you cannot make a Hemi RT with just a FT. Yes you can make a Hemi RT 4 spd air grabber 6 way seat, etc. car with a FT BUT if the car has all that crap than it is what it is.

These cars all came down the same assembly line, there wasn't a special line for "high end" cars, they were just cars at the time but since collectors and investors got involved now there is all this crap. Back in the 70's and 80's we bought cars based on what the car was before us not what a tag said as that was irrelevant.

Lastly, if you want a repo tag you can get one but you just have to do the work to figure out what it should say and who will make it, the big name resto guys and experts (Galen) know exactly where to get them.

Having a non-caring attitude towards correctness of a "simple Fender Tag" is the sort of behaviour that leads to fraudulent actions.....such as two halves of different cars being brought together as one....and claiming it is a real car.

All those Chevy & Ford guys don't care about their numbers simply because most of those high-end cars were produced with non-traceable heritage.

Anyone can pass off a 6/cyl automatic Mustang as a Genuine Shelby Hertz race car......I know a guy who did it back in the 80's.

 

[70chall440]

Once again, those who are setting out to defraud someone are going to do no matter how outraged people are or aren't. The fender tag issue has become so emotional its ridiculous.

Most of the people who want a tag merely want completeness and to be "in the club" since everyone has made such a big deal about having one.

If you are buying a high dollar car, surely you are not just relaying on the FT to put you over the line of whether to buy or not. The majority of people out there cannot even read the tags so just having one present make or break a sale (or shouldn't).

You ever notice at ALL of the big dollar cars (talking Hemis, 6 packs, wing cars, etc.) have tags? Sure some of these cars have been cherished for their entire lives but many of them have not and were treated far worse than any 318 car meaning that in many cases the tags were gone, yet here they are with them on display.

In conclusion I will say that as long as there is money in it there will be those who will try and capitalize on it. This is one of the many reasons I dont like stock or restored cars, way too much drama not to mention boring as hell..

 

[69Coronetrt]

Having a non-caring attitude towards correctness of a "simple Fender Tag" is the sort of behaviour that leads to fraudulent actions.....such as two halves of different cars being brought together as one....and claiming it is a real car.

It always appears that the folks least caring about tags and most cavalier about them aren’t the ones in the financial area where it makes a lot of difference.

Generally, If you’re not buying 100k plus cars, you can afford to not care about authentic tags and documentation. People buying upper end cars deserve to not be defrauded by fake tags whether you care or not.

 

[nitro_rat]

It always appears that the folks least caring about tags and most cavalier about them aren’t the ones in the financial area where it makes a lot of difference.

Generally, If you’re not buying 100k plus cars, you can afford to not care about authentic tags and documentation. People buying upper end cars deserve to not be defrauded by fake tags whether you care or not.

Part of dealing with 100k plus cars is doing your due diligence about the origins, documentation, etc.

If you're dropping big money on a hemi car or something I would hope you're checking to make sure the build sheet, VIN, fender tags, body numbers, engine and transmission numbers, etc. corroborate what you're purchasing.

What about my car? It sat outside long enough with the windows out/down that there's no chance of a surviving build sheet. It's a '68. The dash was sold and subsequently reunited with the car so it has it's VIN. The fender tag was also separated from the vehicle but retained by the owner. I am now in possession of all 3. The tag decodes to match what's there. The original paint on it matches the car. There's no build sheet to connect the order number on the data tag to the VIN which via the dash frame has been separated from the body.

If I end up restoring the car, the fender tag has a hole rusted in it. It's small, and between numbers. It definitely doesn't interfere with reading or decoding the tag. I would try to procure a replacement so it looks nice. Is there something immoral about that? Especially if the original tag is retained as part of the car's documentation?

A '68 wouldn't have had a VIN on the engine or trans, so procuring date coded replacements would really make the car as good as it could ever be. Would I represent it as original, numbers matching? No. Would its value be perceptibly less than a documented, numbers matching example?

I think it's up to whomever is laying down the cash.

 

[dart4forte]

Break out the popcorn