Loud and scary noises coming from my 440...

[Garys1969RR]

Once I put on a new front crank pulley, and a couple bolts were too long. They were hitting the timing chain cover and making noise. Shorter bolts fixed it. Any updates?

 

['67Satellite]

Well, moved the car out to the driveway so i have room to figure out this noise. Ill start tearing parts off tonight and get some updates posted. Im excited to get back at this and figure it all out. Most importantly, fix the damn thing!

 

[super-bee_ski]

WOW,
Big"Jump" for you...
Pull the GTX out and re-investigate...
It could be as "Garys1969RR" found on his Runner...
Keep us posted Will...
"Cuz, inquiring minds want to know"....
"Super-bee_ski

PS: Thanks for stopping by last week with "Marine Matt"
Man, you Marine guys are "KOOL"!

Oh yeah...be sure to enjoy F-35 Flt test in Yuma, AZ...It should be like a SAUNA by now!
(Im sure your NEXT on the list..." )
tee-hee-hee!

 

['67Satellite]

Well smart people. I pulled the cam and it looks great. No fried bearing or anything crazy. The lifters and rocker all look good too. Nothing out of the ordinary to me. Im starting to think i should just buy new main and rod bearings to be on the safe side, and put it back together. Im also thinking about a new oil pump just to be safe.

After getting this far into the motor, im starting to think of the trans again. I just dont know. Youd think evidence of such a loud sound would be obvious.

 

[miller]

Day late, and a dollar short. Good read, though. Sorry about your trouble.

Cam looks good, and you say the cam bearings are good, too. Right? Just a note, since your down that far, look your cam bearings over, to be sure the oiling ports are in line.

The guys are flat right on the crank bit, though. The main bearings are flat wore for the little time on the motor. Definately something wrong there. Needs everything checked for straightness, out of round, and sizing. Positively new mains, sized right, and put in right.
Check cap bore sizes, to be sure what you have. Do you understand bearing 'crush'? If not, might want to look it up, so when you size new bearings, it will be right. (Kinda helps avoid spun bearings)

Before you pulled the crank, did you check it for end play? Also been mentioned about end play at the converter, when you bolt up to the flex plate. Should be almost a quarter inch.

Sound you recorded...really sounds like a end play issue, not enough, and 'something' was in a bind.
Good luck on it! At least it was caught, before any real damage.

 

['67Satellite]

Thanks a lot miller. Ill check for out of round and straightness when i can make it back out. I do have a good understanding of the subject, and im confident i can replace the bearings and get everything back to running shape. Ill be ordering a new oil pump and a rebuild kit for my torqueflites front pump.

thats the direction im heading for now, new bearings, oil pump, and front pump.

 

[miller]

You bet!

On your 727 pump, if your pulling it anyway, easy enough to open it up, and look for any bad wear. Those things usually hold up pretty good, unless something major goes with the trans. Usually just a cleaning, will make them work.
If I remember right, should be able to rotate the trans pump. How does it feel?
The converter, in place, is what links the pump with the rest of the trans.

 

['67Satellite]

Well guys. Pulled the crank after checking for straightness. Its true, however all the bearings are damaged. Not crazy, and none were spun, but all had rubbed babbitting. There was obviously some contact on the rod and main bearing surfaces. Looks like i may have found it. But one question remains, why didnt it make the noise in the last car? I have no idea.

But im going to change all these bearings out, plastigage of course, and put it back together with a few new pieces, better oil pan and a new oil pump, new distributor, and so on.

Thoughts?

 

[bm02tj]

Plastigage is not accurate have some one mic it
If you have fresh plastigage it will be semi close

 

[miller]

Great to hear on your crank!

But, for what it's worth...I've never trusted plastigage. Sure, I completely understand that not everybody has mics in their hands. Looking at your new photos, I see some wear, that should not be there. Some on the mains, mostly on the rod inserts...clear in the center, pretty heavy wear at the fore/aft surfaces.
Gotta wonder if either the crank, or rod bearing surfaces are not straight. In other words, what I call 'cupped'. Might just be me.
I'm just cleaning on 'my' 440, high mileage, normal wore-out. Every bearing on it has hardly any wear on the running surfaces, with only flaked particles. Your looking at low mileage, right?

Be well worth the trouble to find someone with mics, to eye-ball all the journals, and make sure what you have. You probably already know this, but with good mics, you can also double-check your new bearing clearances, by using a cup/ball.

 

['67Satellite]

Alright, update. Guess ill need crank work... took a second look after pulling the heads and pistons. Spun it over smoothly, and ive got over .001 out of round under the number one main cap. And found a nice little ring under the number 5. Ill post pictures later tonight.

- - - Updated - - -

Thoughts guys? The numer 5 main bearing, the one with the ring you can catch a finger nail on, is the worst as far as visible wear. And over .001 out of round on the number 1, bad or not. Seems to me a thousandth is a lot in this case. I need your wisdom people!

 

['67Satellite]

Looks like the out of round limitation for these is .001. So i think ill be good. As far as the ring on the number five journal, think i can polish it?

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

I just can't even imagine that sound that was coming out of that motor being related to a ridge or grove in your crank? I mean the way that thing sounded was crazy and seemd so far up front of the engine.

 

[Garys1969RR]

It looks as if your bottom end has suffered from oil starvation. I dont know what else could cause the bearings to wear out so quick other than dirt/debris getting in there some how. Who assembled your engine? Did you use a new oil pump before? How much oil pressure? How many miles on that bottom end? What kind of oil did you use? Sometimes debris is left in the oil passages after a hot tanking of the block. Even after a thouough cleaning, some dirt can still remain.

- - - Updated - - -

I always spin my oil pump for several minutes while rotating the crank by hand, prior to firing up a rebuilt engine. This helps to insure that all moving parts have clean oil flowing to them.

 

['67Satellite]

I agree that the noise doesnt sound like bearings. But while im in here, i may as well replace them. New oil pump was used, and will be replaced when i reassemble the motor. It was a fresh rebuid before, only a couple hundred miles. Oil pump was well primed before starting too.

Now that the motor is torrn down all the way, i remain suspect of the trans. I am looking for a new trans just so i can make sure this doesnt happen again.

 

[Jim Bob The Dancing Bear]

I had my 727 rebuilt here in Oklahoma for 550. I dropped it off one day and got it back 3 or 4 days later with a 1 year warranty if I brought it back in once it was in the car and running. They wanted to check and insure the kickdown was adjusted correctly for the warranty.

 

[daredevil]

I,d pull the old oil pump apart and look for interference between the impeller and body. Maybe the noise was travelling up the intermediate shaft and thats why it sounds up top and front.

 

['67Satellite]

Lobes of the oil pump have a little wear. But i had good pressure, and it doesnt sound badwhen i run it with the drill. Ill post pics of it.

 

[miller]

Pretty common for a oil pump to have wear marks on the gears. Really depends on the clearances, and how much trash goes through it. Good chance your pump is still good, but one thing I always do, even on a new pump, is take it completely apart, check every clearance to make sure their right, and I polish the gear/ housing surfaces to my liking. That just insures good, free operation on the pump. Put a good eye on the relief valve/spring, too!
That oil pump is the life of your motor.

One last thought on that, since you've got it down that far, get a set of galley brushes, and make sure all your oil galleys are clean.

Seeing the new pics of your crank. Are you saying the crank journal is out-of-round? Or the crank itself?
Sure, polishing ALL the crank journals can be done, and help. Could even help straighten out a out-of-round journal, some. Depends on who's doing the polishing.
Have you been able to check if the journals are straight?

If the crank itself is bent...different story.

Any idea what kind of clearances you had...or will have?
Great hearing your getting those things found. Last...sounds...make sure you've got end play on all parts and pieces. Still think something was binding.

 

['67Satellite]

Pretty common for a oil pump to have wear marks on the gears. Really depends on the clearances, and how much trash goes through it. Good chance your pump is still good, but one thing I always do, even on a new pump, is take it completely apart, check every clearance to make sure their right, and I polish the gear/ housing surfaces to my liking. That just insures good, free operation on the pump. Put a good eye on the relief valve/spring, too!
That oil pump is the life of your motor.

One last thought on that, since you've got it down that far, get a set of galley brushes, and make sure all your oil galleys are clean.

Seeing the new pics of your crank. Are you saying the crank journal is out-of-round? Or the crank itself?
Sure, polishing ALL the crank journals can be done, and help. Could even help straighten out a out-of-round journal, some. Depends on who's doing the polishing.
Have you been able to check if the journals are straight?

If the crank itself is bent...different story.

Any idea what kind of clearances you had...or will have?
Great hearing your getting those things found. Last...sounds...make sure you've got end play on all parts and pieces. Still think something was binding.

Well i agree about the oil pump. I don't think it's the cause, and i'm sure it's still good. But just to be on the safe side, i'm replacing it. The out of round i spoke of earlier was the "number one" journal. While being spun, it measures out of round just about inline with the timing key on the snout of the crank. I read into it a little and found that .001 is the limit for out of round journals. As far as the whole crank being bent, i'm going to get it checked out by an engine builder out here when i take the block in for cam bearing replacement.