Most complete EFI kit to use-Need recomendation

[andyf]

You are having trouble with a carburetor and somehow you think a fuel injection conversion will be a better way to go? Really???

That is a good point but some people have trouble with their first wife but get married again anyway and it works. So who knows, maybe he just doesn't "get" carbs but he'll find his true soul mate with EFI.
I just got the new 4150 style Holley Sniper today. Looks cool. I haven't fired it up yet but I like some features on this model better than the original one.

 

[andyf]

Edelbrock Pro Flo 4. Complete from firewall forward. Not a hiccup. Perfect. 4K miles. Check for a 383 application. External pumps are loud, and too much under hood heat for the pressure builders they sell IMO. In tank pump best way to go. Don’t buy from Ricks Tanks El Paso.

Doesn't exist for 383/400 engines

 

[Kern Dog]

That is a good point but some people have trouble with their first wife but get married again anyway and it works. So who knows, maybe he just doesn't "get" carbs but he'll find his true soul mate with EFI.
I just got the new 4150 style Holley Sniper today.

Yeah, but YOU are a smart guy. You can tune both carbureted and EFI systems. The OP is obviously not that skilled. HIS words:
".... but not being an expert or even very good with the fuel system or installing an EFI. I don't want to buy unnecessary parts or parts that don't necessarily work correctly together."

A fuel injection system is not a simple upgrade like installing a CD player or a set of shocks.
I get the impression that this guy thinks that going with EFI will solve all of his problems. It might.... but it probably will bring with it a host of obstacles along the way. Pay a shop to deal with them or stumble through it all yourself. YOUR choice.
Dennis spent over $4000 to do his swap and while it has performed great for him, it has also puked 2 fuel pumps within a week. IN tank pumps that are not simple repairs. Is the OP able to fix that or can he afford to pay to have it done?

I have considered EFI but I would never see the benefits of it here. I don't drive to 8000 ft elevations. I don't drive in sub zero weather. I'm not interested in trying to squeeze another 1.5 mpg out of my 1970 car.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Let me share my "Carburetors vs Fuel Injection" conundrum...
It has more to do with my wife's GTO than my Roadrunner, although a 3x2 EFI system may wind up on my future stroker motor, the Promax modded Holley carbs are going to get their opportunity to get the job done first.
Back to the GTO. I had All American Carburetors "restore" the 3 Rochester 2bbl carbs on the built 421 right before Cruisin the Coast 2018. I had always had problems with them leaking fuel from the surfaces that are where the body and top plate of the carb comes together. Fairly common, because of the 3 bolt design that holds them together, so common we had a couple of Tripower GTO owners say "they all leak"...
Well I found that unacceptable, and I had a local mechanic use "parts store" rebuild kits go through them, that took care of previous owners using ethanol laced fuel without any additives to fight the effect of "gooping up" the various non-ethanol compatible parts. That helped, some, but not long before they were leaking again. So that's when All American Carburetors went through them, made them look like new, NO MORE LEAKS, but they rebuilt them to stock specifications, and the 421 is a good bit far from stock.
So I'm sending them to Dick Boneske, an expert with the Tripower setups, especially modifying them for high performance, even stroked performance Pontiac engines. THAT is going to be the LAST shot for the Tripower carbs. Now I expect great results, but if I get another call from my wife, who is screaming so loud into the cellphone I can't tell what she's saying, because the carbs failed again, killed when hot, wouldn't start after a brief stop, or other problems, that's when we are going to EFI, if we have problems with the carbs after Dick works his magic. The other factor is we certainly don't want to "leave any power on the table" after having invested in the parts and labor when the already massaged 421 was rebuilt by us through a local shop and taken several steps up beyond where it already was. By having a fuel injection system dialed in by experts who have the equipment, software, and experience to tune an EFI system to it's full potential, along with the way EFI "adjusts" to the environment it finds itself in, we can be assured that we get the full value of money already invested.
A local couple who have a 65 389 Tripower GTO got the finest EFI system I've seen specifically for a Tripower setup on a Pontiac (although the F&B system is outstanding as well) and when the Rochester look alike setup was done along with the supporting hardware (fuel lines, fuel pump, etc) the owner said it was the best EIGHT thousand dollars he'd spent!
I know the FiTech 3x2 system would work great on the 421, but that looks like my Holley 6bbl, and of course my wife wants the one that looks like Rochester carbs.
It is a beautiful sight!

 

[hanks73340]

where i did a search...

send the link

Just type EFI in the Search window. There is a bunch of threads dealing with this. I too had carb issues that I eventually got tired of. Went to the FiTech EFI Go Street model. Love it. Much improvement. I'm not knocking carbs, this just happened to work out better in my case. Good Luck.

 

[Dennis H]

Sequential Port. The rest are really electronic carburetors.

 

[Acworld34]

Hi Everyone,

Just fyi so you have my background and my original intent. I have been having problems with the carbs, killed when hot, not starting after a brief stop as someone already mentioned, not starting in inclement weather, leaking from some of the lines, having to use spray to start and killing my battery at times when i had problems starting(this might be unrelated) and so on. I just wanted recommendations of systems people used i want the relaibilty of going to the store and not worrying if my car will struggle to start back up. The mechanics out and the shops that i went to don't really know how to work with Carbs. the ones that do charge outrageous prices.

So i am not an expert mechanic. I have done a whole electrical rewire of the car with American Autowire, change shocks, valve covers and seals, replaced the fuel tank with sender, real tail shaft seal, alternator, relocate the battery, water pump, speedometer input seal and other minor items , like changing brakes and rotors on other cars. The shops around here charge $120/hr for labor only and with the list of stuff they wanted to do to my car. They charged me $258 for 2 hours of labor just for looking the car over. I just asked them to give me a estimate to get the car road worthy and i had the wiring kit already and i got an estimate for 15k. see attached. So i wanted to see if this is something i could possibly do on my own or do i really need to go to a shop and which EFI system worked best for self installation.

 

[Acworld34]

I also wanted to just say Thanks to everyone that chimed in as this has really had me thinking about EFI and the issues and types of problems i might have if i did this.

I see all the companies state that this is a simple job and posting videos of installs and it is more complicated than i originally thought. I am going to think about it and plan out what system i would like to use. So again i appreciate all the info that was shared.

 

[Don Frelier]

Just an fyi, perhaps you are unaware but andyf is by far your best resource here.
He is an author, engineer and tech writer.
Just Google Andy Finkbeiner and you will see.
Read his advice carefully.

 

[andyf]

Yeah, but YOU are a smart guy. You can tune both carbureted and EFI systems. The OP is obviously not that skilled. HIS words:
".... but not being an expert or even very good with the fuel system or installing an EFI. I don't want to buy unnecessary parts or parts that don't necessarily work correctly together."

A fuel injection system is not a simple upgrade like installing a CD player or a set of shocks.
I get the impression that this guy thinks that going with EFI will solve all of his problems. It might.... but it probably will bring with it a host of obstacles along the way. Pay a shop to deal with them or stumble through it all yourself. YOUR choice.
Dennis spent over $4000 to do his swap and while it has performed great for him, it has also puked 2 fuel pumps within a week. IN tank pumps that are not simple repairs. Is the OP able to fix that or can he afford to pay to have it done?

I have considered EFI but I would never see the benefits of it here. I don't drive to 8000 ft elevations. I don't drive in sub zero weather. I'm not interested in trying to squeeze another 1.5 mpg out of my 1970 car.

We've had this discussion a couple of times and I agree with you. I do not try to talk anyone into EFI these days. I think EFI has a lot of benefits that don't get discussed in these forums such as data logging, but I agree that it isn't for everyone. EFI might not even be for most people. An EFI conversion requires some debugging skill, some knowledge and tools for wiring, and some fundamental engine knowledge. It helps to understand BSFC for example since that formula will tell you which injector size to buy as well as which fuel pump to buy. I've found that very few hot rodders understand BSFC well enough to calculate the size of fuel pump they'll need for a 600 hp NA engine. If people aren't comfortable with electronics and computers then they either need to dedicate themselves to some learning, or just pass on EFI for now. I didn't know anything about EFI 3 years ago. I took an EFI class and then I spent a bunch of time on the Holley website reading the instruction manuals. Then I bought a kit and struggled with the first install. I've done about 20 installs now and I'm getting to the point where I have a pretty good grasp on what is going on, but it took some time and effort to get here.

 

[Budnicks]

there's other ways to do fuel systems too
like a surge tank upfront, fed by the existing fuel pump & lines
a lot less plumbing & even electrical/wiring
fitech makes one,
they make a decent EFI system too, for your power levels

disclaimer;
I haven't used it,
but IMO it looks promising, it could work well
if you don't want to mess with the existing fuel system or tank
it's like $375 - $400 for the surge tank/pump

need to talk to them, tell them honestly/truthfully
what you have & what you expect, no some pipe dream stuff

F&B Throttle Body
Holley
fitech
several others that are easy & self learning
pretty much bolt on with simple tools

------------------------------------------------------------

Richard Nedbal @ fastmanefi 209-247-6497
can probably help too
he's a member here also http://www.fastmanefi.com

 

[Dennis H]

I don’t get underhood pumps. Convenient maybe. But the idea is to get the fuel away from heat.

 

[BeepBeepRR]

Well lets face it, when carbs were the only thing around they were the best thing since sliced bread. But times change and why in the hell would somebody want to sit there patting the gas and holding idle until the car warms up.. I'm all about technology and if it happens to make your life easier then why the hell not. Carbs are great if you know how to tune them. But for some people that have come into cars late in the game EFI is all they know. So you cant knock a person for wanting simplicity. I guess the real question is how long do you want to sit there and wait for the car to warm up. Us older guys are used to it. But, the younger crowd is all about get in it and go...

 

[70chall440]

I cannot say I am a huge fan of under hood pumps but I do believe they work. The gen 1 Fitech "fuel commander" had a lot of issues and there is a lot online about how bad it was. I talked to Fitech at BJ last January and they had just released the gen 2 version which they said had been developed to address all of the issues with the gen 1; they said it could be mounted in virtually any configuration (say behind a grille) and that it worked well. I haven't used one so I don't know for sure but if what they said is true, it would be a good way to run EFI without altering the vehicle.

 

[BeepBeepRR]

Here is a Nicks Garage video on EFI

 

[70chall440]

Essentially there are 4 main components/issues here that have to be dealt with regards to EFI;

1. the delivery system of which there are 2 types;
A. Throttle Body Injection (TBI)
B. Direct Port Injection (DPI).
For performance, DPI is undeniably the best, for cost TBI systems are generally cheaper.

2. the control system; this generally comes in 2 forms;
A. integrated systems like that found on many of the "plug and play" systems
B. separate systems that have a computer and harness.

3. the fuel system: as advertised these come in 3 variations;
A. complete new system that has the tank, feed and return lines, filters, and in-tank pump.
B. Modified stock system that usually has an external pump, feed and return lines, external filters, etc.
C. the fuel commander style system that puts a tank into the front of the car that takes fuel from the mechanical pump, pressurizes it and feeds the EFI system. Generally, the return line goes to the under hood tank, not back to the actual fuel tank.

4. setup and tuning; there are 2 main versions
A. self learning
B. manual setup/tuning via a computer
Note: all self learning systems require some level of setup and do allow for some minor tweaking and many of the manual systems do have some self learning as well.

The main argument of the "self learning" systems is that they do not always self learn as correctly as the owner would like. Also, they tend not to like big cams, low vacuum motors. Of course the manual full control systems do require an understanding of the intricacies of EFI, however there are a lot of books and the internet that can provide a very deep understanding of it. The advantage of full control of course is just that, you have full control, you can make the smallest of changes in the narrowest of situations that are specific to your driving style and environment.

The real problem with EFI is this; people want bolt on solutions without consequence or issue. I would ask what aspect of hotrodding fits this? We modify every aspect of the vehicle all of which comes with compromise, learning curve and at times issues. Everything you do with a car requires some education and EFI is no exception, it is not magic and is not nearly as difficult as some would have you believe. It is also more reliable that carbs regardless of what people would say (just try and find a modern car with a carb). People talk about failure, sure EFI can fail just like everything else, but normally failures can be attributed directly back user issues, usually related to power sources. Yes, points and a carb are simple and will work when the EMP goes off, but not much else. If EFI is something that interests you, then do not let fear stop you because there is nothing to be afraid of.

 

[Dennis H]

No EFI failures, only fuel delivery failures that I am aware of. The plumbing, pump, etc are more of a challenge than the FI itself. At $1600 for Pro Flo 4, got more money in the tank etc than that.

 

[bearman]

My 2 cents I know there is a few of you that drive truck and all of you heavy haul mechanics have have been dealing with ddc electronics and Cummins select and all the rest of them. These heavy haul engines have and do have a efi system just a different name. What I'm saying is that these trucks run thousands of miles and every type environment you can think of. So I'm a believer in the efi systems and will have a system on my car when I get to that point. I have read these post and the best advice is read, video talk to people. But talk about the small stuff also. Hoses, air cleaners and filters what kind of gas you will be using these have a bigger impact on your efi than anything else. I always believed that efi should also have it's own source of power don't share your pow er and grounds with anything else.

 

[matthon]

Tanksinc tank, worth the $, a nice new, powder coated clean tank, provides flat top and flanges for mounting the pump and sending unit, internal baffle, and air port.

PTFE stainless fuel line for both supply and return. I used Fragola fittings, incredibly easy to install. Bought a PTFE fuel line cutter just to get a nice clean cut.
'Corvette' filter/regulator mounted near tank.
I put AN fittings on everything, easy peasy.

Toyota Forerunner alternator, electronic ignition, updated wiring and grounds, including positive and negative hubs. I grounded everything, including the tank and pump, with new wiring.

I also got a new Lokar throttle cable.

That's my advice, if you're spending a good chunk of change for efi, spend the $ to make it complete.

Also, not only will it not solve existing issues, avoid immediately blaming the efi on future issues, use the kiss principle first.

 

[threewood]

If you are trying to fix hot start issues and cold start issues, maybe try a different carburetor. Edelbrock AVS with electric choke plus a 1" phenolic spacer.

To keep the gas cool, I would recommend swapping in a Holley EFI tank with in-tank pump. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sne-19-439/year/1969/make/plymouth/model/satellite . You will also need a return style regulator (6 psi) and a 3/8" return line. Add in a mech pump cover plate, filter, pump relay and wiring and maybe a carb throttle bracket if needed.

This is the setup I have now. And no start issues in +100 degree weather. And if I want to add efi later I already have the tank and pump installed.

The Sniper efi sets start at $999ish, maybe find a better deal for black Friday on the net.

Tank and Holley efi will put you around $1600 + small items.
EFI tank, regulator and new carb will bring you in under $1100.