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muscle car market

yes as I said its a labor of love ut due to the business owner in me I just cant put 50 in a car worth 25 and most of my cars I own way below market value and im very conservative on the values I put on cars. I see mant think the way I do that in 10 to 15 yrs they will be coming way down I know a friend of mine is having trouble trying to get 130 for a 69 hemi gtx convertible with 18 k original miles and its almost 100 % perfect
 
The population keeps growing every year, the supply of 60's-70's muscle cars shrinks a little every year. I think the demand for muscle cars in the future will be just fine.
 
There are a lot issues with this question. The "Muscle Car Market", and I use quotes because there are a LOT of sports cars, compact cars, and Pony cars that have been lumped into that market that have no business being there, is unlike any other vehicle market anyone has ever seen. Traditionally, collector car markets have followed pretty definable tracks. First, there are lots of cars and owners, then attrition rates of both owners and cars lesson their numbers, and as all the owners die off there are enough cars left to satisfy the market as younger buyers who have an interest for one reason or another keep the cars going. Think pre-1940 cars, Brass Era cars, etc.

The Muscle Car Market got stood on its head in October 1987 when the stock market nearly collapsed and folks took their money out of it and looked for other places to invest, and they found collector cars. These folks drove values up, using bogus auction reserves primarily, but by the time they got caught the values were so high that others bought in and there was a snowballing effect to it all. The end result of all this was tens of thousands of cars that would normally have been scrapped decades ago were instead saved and restored, so we now have a huge oversupply of cars from the 1950s to the 1970s on the market.

As for buyers, most people have an emotional attachment to the cars that were hot when they were young, that their Dad drove, etc., and that's what they long for when they get older and have some disposable income to drop into an old car. So we're seeing values on cars like late 1980s and 1990s era Mustangs, Camaros. Corvettes, etc., going up while values for olders cars are going down as the number of interested owners goes down.

The younger folks are out there, they just aren't with us. I know of a lot of hangouts where I can find dozens of kids in their ricers and Mustangs sitting around bench racing on weekend nights just like we did in the 70s and 80s, and there are more and more 80s and 90s cars showing up at shows sponsored by marque and model clubs. So they are just as interested in their cars as we are with ours, but we're of a different era with different music, art, movies, and cars and while some of them love cars of our era, there are nowhere's near enough of them to balance out with the number of cars available, so it's going to be interesting to see where the market goes in the future.

My prediction is we'll see a continued interest in the resto-mod market, but that won't last, and once the New Big Thing comes out we'll see further decline and eventually our cars won't be worth the cost or effort to maintain and many will get scrapped out.
 
You seem awfully passionate about excluding anything but midsize performance cars from the blanket term "Muscle Car". Why is that? Respectfully, I'm just genuinely curious about your opinion, and maybe I'll learn something new today.
 
I think Barrett Jackson really screwed the market as a whole, especially after it started to be televised. All of a sudden everyone thought they had a $150k or more car simply because the saw a rotisserie restored 1 of 15 car go through the blocks and get $600k.
The hemis, shelbys & yenkos commanded so much $$$ the last 10 or so years that by default made a lot of the more common cars a lot harder for the entry level hot rodder to justify purchasing.
Why go spend 10k on a hull and sink another 20k just to get it on the road when you could go to a dealership pay 35k for a 400hp for a pint car with a warranty....
I think the market has stabilized for the most part...I don't think it will tank....will a 50k car be worth 50 in 10 years? If it's a custom, probably not, it's a 10 yr+ build....if it's a numbers matching, limited run, low mileage properly restored...possibly.
 
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You seem awfully passionate about excluding anything but midsize performance cars from the blanket term "Muscle Car". Why is that? Respectfully, I'm just genuinely curious about your opinion, and maybe I'll learn something new today.
Because I was around, and paying attention, in the late 1960s and 1970s. Back then, there was no homogeneous Performance car market like there is today. Back then, cars were designed, produced, and marketed to very specific and well defined market segments.

The Sports car was defined by two-seat, small, great handling cars. They were not designed for power/speed, which is why sports car racing has always been more about road courses and handling tests than speed and they never went to NASCAR.

The 1964 1/2 Mustang was a Compact car that created a new market based on styling that came to be known as Pony cars. After that, any compact with a long front/short rear deck (Camaros, Firebirds, AMX, E-bodies, etc.) was marketed as a Pony car. Ford viewed the Mustang as a four-seat Sports car, and directed its marketing efforts towards Sports car owners. This is why Mustangs, and other Pony cars, were designed and built to meet Sports car racing standards and given names to reflect that such as Trans Am (both the Pontiac and the Challenger T/A).

The Muscle car market started in 1964 when Pontiac decided to offer a plain midsize coupe with increased performance and everyone else followed suit. The Tempest became the GTO, the Satellite/Belvedere became the GTX and Roadrunner, the Fairlane became the Torino, etc. These were marketed as go-fast cars and found their support from racing venues that appreciated speed over handling, which is why our cars ended up in NASCAR and not any other sports car events.

Plymouth and Dodge had midsize production rolled into fullsize, and didn't break it out as a separate business unit until 1965, mainly as a result of the success of GTO sales at Pontiac, and at that point they had Compact (A Body), Fullsize (C Body), and now Midsize (B Body) divisions, so there was never a homogeneous Muscle Car division that cranked out high-performance A/C/B bodies. Muscle cars were under the Midsize division only, and the focus of the Compact performance group was on the Sports and Pony car markets. So from a production and buyer perspective, Sports, Pony/Compact, Midsize/Muscle, and Fullsize cars had very unique and differentiated production and markets.

Now jump ahead to the 1980s, and after decades of Sports and Pony cars being the focus of attention, we now have Muscle cars getting noticed and more and more the terms Sports and Pony sound either snobbish or girly, and we saw the start of efforts to redefine Muscle cars as pretty much any old car with a big engine in it, be it a Compact, Pony, Sports, Fullsize, or whatever, even if it was made ten years before the Muscle car market was even formed. Sports and Pony became uncool, Muscle became cool, and everyone wants to be cool, so we have people wanting to apply the term nowadays to pretty much any old car even if it's a /6 Duster.
 
Why go spend 10k on a hill and sink another 20k just to get it on the road when you could go to a dealership pay 35k for a 400hp for a pint car with a warranty....
I think the market has stabilized for the most part...I don't think it will tank....will a 50k car be worth 50 in 10 years? If it's a custom, probably not, it's a 10 yr+ build....if it's a numbers matching, limited run, low mileage properly restored...possibly.

Most vehicle purchases fall into three categories: Functional, Emotional, or Investment. Most new cars sales fall into the Functional category. They are new, they are technologically superior, have warranties, etc. Our cars fall into the Emotional and Investment categories, and we saw a mass exodus of investors in the late 1990s as they went to precious metals. That leaves the vast majority of sales in the Emotional category, and every day there are fewer and fewer people with emotional connections to these cars. Just a sad fact of life.
 
I went to a cruse in last night with the wife. Of about a hundred cars, I saw very few younger people there. I'm talking maybe thirty five and younger. I brought this same question up to her, and she very much agreed. Were it fellas. These younger guys won't have the disposable income to invest in a car.


You don't see too many people in ther 20s who want "our" old iron. It's the same thing with us; who wants cars from the 30s & earlier?
 
I agree with some of that RC, I think that the interest in 20s, 30s type cars is limited as that generation that worked on them, spent their lives in them is shrinking, add to the fact that they were utilitarian in design.
Muscle cars, sports cars & performance dating back to the 50s was a start of something different.
These now had a purpose other than going to church and commuting. That I think is now engrained in our culture, the fascination with performance will never go away. I know a few 20 something's that would love some old iron...but it's a lot easier for them to go finance a mustang or challenger as well as having all the creature comforts...
 
Guys I got to stir the pot . I'm 29 I want everything ! From a 1901 run about ,tall t ,org a ,late 30's early 40's gangster cars the big fin cars of the 50's 60's American muscle of the 70's the turbo Corky cars of the 80's (not to much in the 90's)I guess trans ams and camaro ,same for the double 00 era. Then now you have the new pony cars . I've swapped mopar muscle for 1940's iron people called me stupid but all cars have there good points and I like them all the . Kids now adays can't afford to fix cars period the cost is threw the roof it's easier faster for them to go out and buy newer car or a rice rocket. I know alot of you guys turn your noise up at them but try one out there a blast to drive. I just bought a 2004 neon srt4 4cly 5 speed turbo it's fun and fast plus I get good mpg and have 4 doors my neon dinoed at 380 HP to the wheels with almost no heavy mods just a computer tune and a few bolt ons and guess what it's cheap and I don't have to deal with rust repair or finding parts if I want something I just order it . I don't agree with some of the ricers with the crooked wheels that seems stupid to me but what ever there doing something I guess .go check out a 1999 3000gt vr4 specs the car came stock with 322 HP. Awd and a 6 speed manual transmission that's bone stock a little computer mode and there pulling 600HP or a nissan 300zx tt it's a twin turbo v6 with 300 HP rwd 5 speed again little computer work and holy cow. These are there muscle cars they grew up with these like you guys yours I grew up with these cars I raced my charger against these cars and got raped. But I don't care what I drive as long as its fast I've had a 300zx tt and a few other ricers eclipses there fun but I still love my mopars and other old iron I have the most odd looking driveway some times .srt4 neon ,47 Buick ,72 charger ,a few pick up trucks ,an suv, like I said if it's fun I want it. The Buick is slow as all hell I don't car it's the coolest car I've ever seen the charger isn't the cools fastest charger I don't care I like it .the neon is very gay looking ah I'll get over it it's fast and gets good mpg the suv is slow but it moves alot of people around the truck does truck stuff everyone likes there own thing like the kids that lift there trucks 10-15 feet in the air I don't get it but hey they like it .
 
I like the ides many have stated on this topic. Im 53 bought my first mopar at 16 a 66 coronet convertible guess thats why I still love the 66 and 67 models working on a 67 rt now, and have had many coronets chargers road runners and gtxs. Im always looking for my next project or two I have room to have a few sit till I can get to them, and thats why I started this topic just wondering what others thought and thinking about future purchases
and I do believe that we will see the 45 k cars be in the 20s in 15 yrs or so maybe less I bought a 69 rt charger in 79 for $ 1400 and I tuned it up flushed fluids and drove it down the road
 
I know a few 20 something's that would love some old iron...but it's a lot easier for them to go finance a mustang or challenger as well as having all the creature comforts...

And that's really the rub. We all know a few 20 or 30 or 40 somethings who love these cars, and these are the same folks who've kept everything from early steam cars to 1950s sedans on the road over the ages. But a few doesn't really do much, which is why we're seeing the drop off at events as we oldsters die or retire off.
 
My two boys are 21 and 27 and grew up with me and my old cars. Now they really don't bother with them. My oldest is into Toyotas. I thought they would carry the Mopar torch but I guess not.
 
The younger crowd like certain older models but the majority do not have the disposable income to acquire or build one. They turn their daily driver into a show car. No different than the guys did in the 60's, 70's and 80's but the older cars have true style and class versus new models.

The high end classics will always get high end prices but all will decline slowly in value.

When I die someone else can worry about that until then its:steering:
 
You don't see too many people in ther 20s who want "our" old iron. It's the same thing with us; who wants cars from the 30s & earlier?


Totally correct, until I reached about 50+ years of age. Now, I like some of the older "finned-cars", and some streetrods. None of the fad type stuff, though. Patina, barn-finds, ratrods, tuners, lowriders, etc.....don't do a thing for me. Actually, stone-stock muscle-cars, bore me to death.
 
It seems like there is a lot of pessimism in this thread about the younger generation losing interest in cars.
CRAZY TALK!! At least in the Minnesota area, there's car shows weekly in my neighborhood and I see a large mix of generations there from young to old! My brother and I grew up with my dad having cars and working on them. We grew into that also. When I was old enough, I bought my first 66 Coronet. (Was it perfect. Nope) But I drove the wheels off of it! I now have 4 of my own old cars (not all are muscle cars). My brother is working on his 3rd car full build. I promise, we're out here!! If you're at a car show and see a younger guy pull up in something, go up to them and chat with them! Myself, my bro, and my dad run a car club in central Mn. You'd have no idea how many times I had to initiate conversation with the older crew to chat. We're not demons get out of that comfort zone and come chat with us too! We're out here, we don't know it all, but we can offer stuff too :)
 
It seems like there is a lot of pessimism in this thread about the younger generation losing interest in cars.
CRAZY TALK!! At least in the Minnesota area, there's car shows weekly in my neighborhood and I see a large mix of generations there from young to old! My brother and I grew up with my dad having cars and working on them. We grew into that also. When I was old enough, I bought my first 66 Coronet. (Was it perfect. Nope) But I drove the wheels off of it! I now have 4 of my own old cars (not all are muscle cars). My brother is working on his 3rd car full build. I promise, we're out here!! If you're at a car show and see a younger guy pull up in something, go up to them and chat with them! Myself, my bro, and my dad run a car club in central Mn. You'd have no idea how many times I had to initiate conversation with the older crew to chat. We're not demons get out of that comfort zone and come chat with us too! We're out here, we don't know it all, but we can offer stuff too :)
Relax a bit. Most of us(including myself) agree with you.

Personally, I can care less about car values etc...I purchase what I enjoy and deal with that cost at the time of purchase and the same goes for restoration/maintenance. Some of us are solely into it as a hobby and love for a brand. Some are not but to each is own...

Btw if you were at one of our shows. I would not only talk to you. I would park beside you!:thumbsup:
 
The super wealthy folk, and not just in the USA, triggered sky rocketing prices of the highly collectable muscle cars, many were exported to Japan and elsewhere starting 20 years ago. People having tons of cash but the only time opening their hood is to check the guy's work who they paid to polish it up for them...owners such as hedge fund managers, pro-athletes, celebrities, others with endless cash. It drove up the prices of other less popular cars of the era and the high price clone market was born.
 
being only 28 I am definitely looking forward to 25 years from now when no one besides me wants these old cars! 70 chargers and hemi superstocks by the dozen! too bad by that time we may not have fuel or the know how to work on them! :(
 
They'll be outlawed by the "green" or "safety" police, by then.
 
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