muscle car market

[themechanic]

We're due for another mega market crash, according to the financial experts. The prediction is a crash worse than 2008. China is facing a bank collapse this week.

So, if you bought a car or finished one recently and have a huge investment in it and aren't in it for the love of your car(s) you should sell before the prices plunge.

 

[44070dart]

The super wealthy folk, and not just in the USA, triggered sky rocketing prices of the highly collectable muscle cars, many were exported to Japan and elsewhere starting 20 years ago. People having tons of cash but the only time opening their hood is to check the guy's work who they paid to polish it up for them...owners such as hedge fund managers, pro-athletes, celebrities, others with endless cash. It drove up the prices of other less popular cars of the era and the high price clone market was born.

Sold two overseas last year and they doubled the price they paid me.. OK with me ..the shipping only cost about two grand to Germany so they did alright when they sold them ..

 

[Ron H]

Well there then! Market appears to still be alive and well. Wondering if the Chinese market could blossom since they own so much of our real estate already and we owe them gazillions...here's a thought...the government could buy up our old American muscle and send them to China at double the purchase cost to pay down the debt...another government agency could be born.

 

[Mike67]

being only 28 I am definitely looking forward to 25 years from now

That will happen way to soon!!!!, and in 10 years you'll be wishing you were 28 again!!!! Lol !!! I'm 47 and 35 -45 is a blurr, it happens overnight....

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

.........whereas modern cars, though impressive technological marvels, are no more memorable than a really quiet dishwasher.

I absolutely love your analogy, and agree 100%

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

it was only a few months ago the Johnny hunkins( editor MM ) was calling us a bunch of "hoarders" that were keeping the young'uns out of the hobby because we won't sell our **** at "reasonable " prices or won't sell at all. I like my crap and plan on keeping it ,so I guess the "young'uns " are just going to have to work hard and save for years just like I did . why do they and everybody else seem to think we should "give " our **** away so a young gun can get into the hobby . I remember thinking why are so many old guys driving these hot cars , simple it takes years before you can afford one

Boy, did you hit it right on the head. Thank you for saying that! I read that chunky Hunkin's Chevy boy editorial also, and it immediately made my blood boil! After subscribing to Mopar Muscle for the last 25 years, that editorial was the straw that ENDED my MM subscription. Hot Rod and Hunkin's can KMA, not only am I going to continue to HOARD my parts, my MAGAZINE money is now going to be hoarded as well. They sure won't get a DIME from me anymore.

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

...here's a thought...the government could buy up our old American muscle and send them to China at double the purchase cost to pay down the debt...another government agency could be born.

Respectfully.........................WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU????

The government will have to KILL me before they will get their hands on my cars.

 

[ws23jrt]

Well there then! Market appears to still be alive and well. Wondering if the Chinese market could blossom since they own so much of our real estate already and we owe them gazillions...here's a thought...the government could buy up our old American muscle and send them to China at double the purchase cost to pay down the debt...another government agency could be born.

Good greif.---
The gov. is -us-- the taxpayers.
It would be just like the gov to make a bad investment with our money.
And I would like to see the craigslist ads in China. They would laugh at the prices just like we do with our version of craigslist.
It would (however) fit with the mentality of many car sellers.--They just don't understand the market in reality.

 

[Patrick Gresham]

Have faith, I'm 28 years old and love the old cars joined this forum to learn about mopars my whole family has classic's and my kid will have a classic to. Being that our economy sucks *** and a dollar goes less far. I see all new vehicles as being disposable..........Straight up garbage!!!!!!!

 

[Budnicks]

They'll be outlawed by the "green" or "safety" police, by then.

If we don't stop that {Liberal Nanny-state Overburdening Govt.} movement
unfortunately I believe what you say could come true...

We need the youth to carry the torch
it takes money to play in the car hobby,
especially what's now considered Collector Car/Muscle car hobby...

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Here's my take, you all can take it or leave it, I could care less really,
Young or older, been my experiances....
When I started out, I certainly wasn't wealthy, still not,
I'm car broke if anything...LOL

I was making $1.65 an/hr pumping gas & changing tires etc.,
to have gas money to drive my cars & pay for insurance, tires upkeep etc.,
I didn't have a silver spoon upbringing...

IMO many of the current batch of the youth market, doesn't understand it...
We didn't have any easy either, I wasn't coddled to, I earned everything I have,
I worked harder than the next guy to get it too...
But yes cars were cheaper, everything was, all markets,
you need to remember they were just used cars back then,
but our income was at-least probably 10 times + less too...
We didn't have it any easier, it's just a different era...

It's all relative, what my era bought was 10 year old used cars,
in that era it was mainly mid sized 60's used cars, in the mid 80's
it was smaller cars 70's with bigger engines, in the 90's it was customs
with pastels & tweed, billet etc.
IMO it was because that laws & collector cars have evolved/changed...
We see markets change with the economy, availability, value,
yes even investments, they were a great investment for a while...

Some guys 401k is those rusted out hulks out in the pastures...
Different strokes for different folks...

IMO what was popular when sold new, will always be popular...
That's why they sold more of them in the 1st place...

The "collector car" market goes up & down all time, it always has...

I still remember when a nice street-rod was almost unattainable,
like $60k for a nicer one, the perceptions was only old rich farts owned them,
they are still about that same value too, they still have a market too
some 30 years later & it's not old rich farts either...

The collector car/Muscle car markets ebb & flows like someone said...
Always has always will, were just in another wave or it...

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This may rub some the wrong way BUT;
What I see isn't Barrett Jackson & Mecum or GYC's
price gouging or the cause of driving the prices up, at all...
IMO that is a captured audiance, with money to spend, they're there to buy &
it's not the common man, youngster out of HS or college,...
But if it is, it's one that saved up for a expensive toy...

{by the way they have some great bargains the 1st couple days at them actions too}

IMO it's bringing many more people into the collector car hobby that normally,
IMO "wouldn't have given a rats *** about some old car"...
IMO It's also "stimulated the parts market,
all the aftermarket co.'s that are now reproducing them,
because of the interest" & yes investments & big money drives some of it...

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Here's another one of my reasonings;
Some people are just idiots, don't get it & think because a car that had
some $50k + {maybe $75k+} spent on restoration costs & labor,
now sells for $100k & really only if it is great quality {resale value}
& popular in the 1st place, that's only after spending $10k+ - $20k+
for the driver quality car with all the parts, pieces etc....
They ain't getting rich, unless they had a bunch way before the mid 90's...

Those idiots now think;
That now their rusted out old hulk or NOS parts {Are worth their weight in gold}
are rotting away in the garages or some POS rusted out hulk in the back field,
is now somehow worth $50k or $130k, that's stupid analogy &
IMO is lame to think like that, it's not reality, never has been & it's not
Barrett Jacksons, Mecums or GYC's fault either...

When in reality, no one will pay those prices,
unless it's rare & 1000pt concourse or quality Resto-Mod or some rare Racecar
Remember it's just asking prices !!! it's not actual sales prices,

IMO most will sit for decades, because some hoarder, overpricing stuff
really thinks he's got a gold mine, in reality he has a
"bunch of rusted out old worn out spaghetti strainers",
not worth much $$$ & getting worse every year, it rots away out back...

Hence the marketing terms, Barn Find, Garage Find, Survivor, #'s Matching etc.
All meant to get more $$$$ for a hulk rusting away in some
garage barn or field etc...

Quality of build & parts used, no matter what it is, will always dictate the prices...
Rare doesn't always mean valuable either...

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IMO & other US knowledgeable enthusiasts {I certainly am not rich}
know that they're really aren't worth much, we'd have to spend $50k to make
them sellable & get any profit & return on our investments/time/labor etc.,
albeit unless, only "it was really rare or really popular, to begin with"...
Otherwise it's wasted $$$, start with something far better, more complete&
especially less rust repairs issues etc....

IMO The market is "just fine, it will continue to be just fine" or the
OE manufacturers, none of them wouldn't be going thru this
"new muscle car & HP wars era's & marketing to younger buyers again,
it's a true Muscle Car Renaissance we are experiencing now today"

My $5 worth...

 

[Hanover Mopar]

continue to HOARD my parts, my MAGAZINE money is now going to be hoarded as well. They sure won't get a DIME from me anymore.

Saw that too. no more of that rag

 

[SteveSS]

I think it may be some B-Bodies and E-Bodies will always be strong sellers. "A thing of beauty is a joy forever."

 

[Ron H]

Hey Mopars & Missiles...appreciate your feedback on what the hell I'm thinking. Just my idea of humor given our relationship if we can call it that, with China. My brother had mentioned to me when we were talking about the skyrocketing prices of muscle cars years ago that there was a serious exportation of our collectible cars especially to Japan when they were booming in the 90's. On a related note, what I hear more people saying at car shows is buying a nicely restoed car for a lower price than you could ever build one. Sad but suppose true and thinking of how much I've already spent and have to spend yet on my '63 Plymouth to get it to the condition I'd like it to be, I'm sure I'd never make a profit and be happy to break even and that's a stretch!

 

[The Rebel]

Very interesting topic. Back in the mid 80'swhen I was in HS many of my friends had GTO's, Camero's, Nova's, Satellite's, Valiant's, Dart's. I had a 1980 Ford Fairmont, LOL! We worked on cars to some degree like tune ups, minor body work but nothing really in depth.

Now that I'm older and my youngest son is into cars (he likes the expensive ones GTR's, Mclarens...) It's rekindled my interest into the muscle cars I saw when I was younger, so I'm looking for a 68/69 Charger, Superbee, or a 69 RR.

I've gone so many shows this summer but man Mopars are in short supply which has solidified my desire for what I'm looking for. Prices are just crazy but the old law of supply & demand drives the market. I was thinking for $20K I could get a really nice car but in reality it's like $30-$40K for a good looking car that needs little to no work.

I don't have time or the tools to spend months/years working on one. Oh, I can do a few things myself but I'd rather be out & about with my family than spending my weekends in a garage somewhere as mine is way to small to work in.

 

[Patrick Gresham]

Very interesting topic. Back in the mid 80'swhen I was in HS many of my friends had GTO's, Camero's, Nova's, Satellite's, Valiant's, Dart's. I had a 1980 Ford Fairmont, LOL! We worked on cars to some degree like tune ups, minor body work but nothing really in depth.

Now that I'm older and my youngest son is into cars (he likes the expensive ones GTR's, Mclarens...) It's rekindled my interest into the muscle cars I saw when I was younger, so I'm looking for a 68/69 Charger, Superbee, or a 69 RR.

I've gone so many shows this summer but man Mopars are in short supply which has solidified my desire for what I'm looking for. Prices are just crazy but the old law of supply & demand drives the market. I was thinking for $20K I could get a really nice car but in reality it's like $30-$40K for a good looking car that needs little to no work.

I don't have time or the tools to spend months/years working on one. Oh, I can do a few things myself but I'd rather be out & about with my family than spending my weekends in a garage somewhere as mine is way to small to work in.

Here are my guidelines:

Think of it as a life time investment
Buy what you like/can afford
Does burn outs
Is fun regardless of condition

Should be a good time.

 

[The Rebel]

I agree, got my eye on this but have some doubts what the seller is presenting.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/68-charger-r-t-clone-for-sale-on-ebay.117951/

Here are my guidelines:

Think of it as a life time investment
Buy what you like/can afford
Does burn outs
Is fun regardless of condition

Should be a good time.

 

[HT413]

Because I was around, and paying attention, in the late 1960s and 1970s. Back then, there was no homogeneous Performance car market like there is today. Back then, cars were designed, produced, and marketed to very specific and well defined market segments.

The Sports car was defined by two-seat, small, great handling cars. They were not designed for power/speed, which is why sports car racing has always been more about road courses and handling tests than speed and they never went to NASCAR.

The 1964 1/2 Mustang was a Compact car that created a new market based on styling that came to be known as Pony cars. After that, any compact with a long front/short rear deck (Camaros, Firebirds, AMX, E-bodies, etc.) was marketed as a Pony car. Ford viewed the Mustang as a four-seat Sports car, and directed its marketing efforts towards Sports car owners. This is why Mustangs, and other Pony cars, were designed and built to meet Sports car racing standards and given names to reflect that such as Trans Am (both the Pontiac and the Challenger T/A).

The Muscle car market started in 1964 when Pontiac decided to offer a plain midsize coupe with increased performance and everyone else followed suit. The Tempest became the GTO, the Satellite/Belvedere became the GTX and Roadrunner, the Fairlane became the Torino, etc. These were marketed as go-fast cars and found their support from racing venues that appreciated speed over handling, which is why our cars ended up in NASCAR and not any other sports car events.

Plymouth and Dodge had midsize production rolled into fullsize, and didn't break it out as a separate business unit until 1965, mainly as a result of the success of GTO sales at Pontiac, and at that point they had Compact (A Body), Fullsize (C Body), and now Midsize (B Body) divisions, so there was never a homogeneous Muscle Car division that cranked out high-performance A/C/B bodies. Muscle cars were under the Midsize division only, and the focus of the Compact performance group was on the Sports and Pony car markets. So from a production and buyer perspective, Sports, Pony/Compact, Midsize/Muscle, and Fullsize cars had very unique and differentiated production and markets.

Now jump ahead to the 1980s, and after decades of Sports and Pony cars being the focus of attention, we now have Muscle cars getting noticed and more and more the terms Sports and Pony sound either snobbish or girly, and we saw the start of efforts to redefine Muscle cars as pretty much any old car with a big engine in it, be it a Compact, Pony, Sports, Fullsize, or whatever, even if it was made ten years before the Muscle car market was even formed. Sports and Pony became uncool, Muscle became cool, and everyone wants to be cool, so we have people wanting to apply the term nowadays to pretty much any old car even if it's a /6 Duster.

Language changes and evolves, man. Nobody says, "yeah, always loved pony cars." "Yeah, bro, always loved those mid 60's compact cars." The farther you are removed from a subject, the lower the resolution. Face it, language has evolved to the point where a hopped up Dart can now be correctly referred to as muscle car, as can a 69 Camaro.

If it's not a muscle car, it's a 'classic car'.

 

[ws23jrt]

Language changes and evolves, man. Nobody says, "yeah, always loved pony cars." "Yeah, bro, always loved those mid 60's compact cars." The farther you are removed from a subject, the lower the resolution. Face it, language has evolved to the point where a hopped up Dart can now be correctly referred to as muscle car, as can a 69 Camaro.

If it's not a muscle car, it's a 'classic car'.

I came to love high performance mopars in the days that they were made.
Hemi cars got my attention and various clubs were formed around mopar stuff. --I was an early member of the NHOA.---National Hemi Owners Association.--
One day a friend of mine told me about a new term being used-- "Mopar Muscle cars" he was hot to form a new club.
I didn't like the term "Muscle car" at the time--I guess as a part of my nature--It sounded to arrogant to me.
As time passed the term works for a bigger picture of cars and is in our speak.--I use it too.

 

[Dgc]

some good ideas on both sides of the subject one thing I have noticed is many cars even the very popular ones just dont seem to sell for the high $ you see the same second generation chargers yes the rts for sale over and over again and imo they are priced way over market. and I think that comes from the auctions making people think their car values are much more than they really are

 

[Bruzilla]

Language changes and evolves, man. Nobody says, "yeah, always loved pony cars." "Yeah, bro, always loved those mid 60's compact cars." The farther you are removed from a subject, the lower the resolution. Face it, language has evolved to the point where a hopped up Dart can now be correctly referred to as muscle car, as can a 69 Camaro.

If it's not a muscle car, it's a 'classic car'.

No, a Dart can not be correctly referred to as a muscle car. It can be correctly referred to as a Compact car. It can be incorrectly referred to as a Muscle car. Same deal with a Camaro except it is a Pony car.

What's funny is calling some Pony owner's car a Muscle car in the 1960s or 1970s was a big time insult back then.