Opinions wanted on low-buck build options

[GearAddict]

Ok, so I have a couple of options in front of me that I'm considering, just to get me through for a year or so, while I work on buying parts/building the final engine combo I want for my 69 RR. I'm not racing the car at all other than a few stoplights. Really hoping to build something that is low-buck, somewhat dependable and has reasonable power (350-400HP) range

Here's what I have to work with.

Car is 69 RR with 4 speed and 4.10 gears

1. 383 currently in car running, 516 heads, unknown pistons, currently reading low comp (95 - 110ish range). Eddy RPM manifold, MSD ign, headers, 509 Purple Cam (long block and cam built by previous owner). Doesn't burn oil significantly, is a bit of a dog down low, but screams up top in the 3K-6K range. I have had a horrible time dialing it in and I believe alot has to do with the heads needing work and too much cam.

2. Fresh rebuilt set of 906 heads with hardened seats.. good for up to .500 lift in current config.

3. A buddy of mine has a complete 400 shortblock assy that is taking up room and I can get for an 18 pack of beer. He got it in trade and never ran it. Stock bore, cylinder walls look great (no ridges), clean looking flat top pistons, stock 400 crank, spins free. Unknown cam.

4. Here's the rub... $600 to spend on all other items.




The 2 options I'm considering are

A. Assume the 383 bottom end is ok, pull 516 heads, hope (pray) to get 8.5:1 or better comp ratio with 906 and steel gasket. Replace 509 cam with better grind for good power idle - 4K range based on CR. total cost $400?

B. Dissasemble 400, hone and re-ring, new bearings, cam as above in option 1. 9.25:1 CR (flat tops with .020" gasket and .026" in hole). 906 heads and all accesories from the 383. $600?

Am I crazy to think that a simple ball hone and re-ring will be ok?

 

[dvw]

For sale a 1976 440 block with cast crank, main caps, keith black pistons and connecting rods with arp bolts. the engine was line honed 1500 miles ago. all components are fine just moving in a different direction. $200.00 for everything. 1-734-775-0738. located outside of Detroit. p,s, the block and pistons are .060 over \

 

[Propwash]

Cam and heads are what make you your power. You already have big block displacement, so the cubes are there to make you some decent torque/HP. If I was in your shoes, I'd sell the 516's and 906's, grab your extra cash and buy a set of aftermarket aluminum heads. They breathe a lot better than the stock heads, you could opt for closed chamber, build for quench, and even have choices in chamber size if you want to have options on your comp ratio, via chamber CC. Lotta options with the cam. Just need one to soak up those 4.10's, work with your driving style, and get's along with the amount of air/fuel getting sucked down the runner's. Myself, I'd ditch the .509. IMO, lot better cam profiles out there, especially for your driving style and car's config.

As far as your piston/cylinder situation goes, never going to know till you rip it apart obviously. You might get real lucky and just require just a hone, never know. But, after 40 some years, I'd guess a bore job of at least 30 out would probably be needed, not to mention turning of the crank journals if need be. It would probably be a good time to level/square out the deck as well.

$600 bucks is a tight fit man. Best of luck to you. It's going to take some fancy foot work, or some real sacrifices to pull off an overhaul & performance upgrades for $600 bucks. I admire your budget mission and seen you pull off some pretty stealthy/creative buyings-workings on your build thread, but the engine is one place I wouldn't be afraid of saving up or finding some extra cash for. Either way, hope you find a route that works and you're happy with in the end.

 

[GearAddict]

Cam and heads are what make you your power. You already have big block displacement, so the cubes are there to make you some decent torque/HP. If I was in your shoes, I'd sell the 516's and 906's, grab your extra cash and buy a set of aftermarket aluminum heads. They breathe a lot better than the stock heads, you could opt for closed chamber, build for quench, and even have choices in chamber size if you want to have options on your comp ratio, via chamber CC. Lotta options with the cam. Just need one to soak up those 4.10's, work with your driving style, and get's along with the amount of air/fuel getting sucked down the runner's. Myself, I'd ditch the .509. IMO, lot better cam profiles out there, especially for your driving style and car's config.

As far as your piston/cylinder situation goes, never going to know till you rip it apart obviously. You might get real lucky and just require just a hone, never know. But, after 40 some years, I'd guess a bore job of at least 30 out would probably be needed, not to mention turning of the crank journals if need be. It would probably be a good time to level/square out the deck as well.

$600 bucks is a tight fit man. Best of luck to you. It's going to take some fancy foot work, or some real sacrifices to pull off an overhaul & performance upgrades for $600 bucks. I admire your budget mission and seen you pull off some pretty stealthy/creative buyings-workings on your build thread, but the engine is one place I wouldn't be afraid of saving up or finding some extra cash for. Either way, hope you find a route that works and you're happy with in the end.

Thanks Will, all good suggestions. This is only to buy me some time while I save up for the big motor project that I am expecting in the future. Just looking to get something running, that isn't a total dog, that has better stability than the current setup I have. I suppose a cam swap alone may solve my issues and then I just have to ride out the current bottom end in the 383 and hope it survives until the new motor is ready.

I kinda want to get the 906 heads on as well as I believe the 516's are seriously beat and in need of a rebuild. The 906's are ready to bolt on and have hardened seats.

 

[Propwash]

No sweat Scott. If that's your plans, I'd say cam swap and dialing in the carburation & timing to a "T". What do you have brewing on the horizon for your future build? Stroker, Hemi, Nasty Wedge motor?

 

[GearAddict]

I'm thinking RB Stroker for a fat cruiser with some hefty low end grunt.

 

[Propwash]

I'm thinking RB Stroker for a fat cruiser with some hefty low end grunt.

Beautiful! Get ready for some serious torque...with a capital "T"!

 

[Meep-Meep]

Since you have the 906 heads ready to go with hard seats I'd say use them with a different cam. But keep in mind the 516's will add compression. Do some measuring and calculations too see if your pistons will provide decent compression with the 906 then choose accordingly. The .474" MoPar cam on a 110 LSA works really well in the 383 as well as an Isky .465" / 280 on a 108 LSA but not with really low compression. If you have 8:1 CR then you might look at something that closes the intake early to preserve cylinder pressure. I think Lunati might have something along those lines or go with a custom grind.

 

[Xp29h]

looks like you've got some good ideas to look at. But I thought I would chime in with some info. As I was reading your description on your 383, I thought you were talking about mine. I fought all summer trying to get my 383 to get some initial power. Just would not happen. It has full msd, 6al2, pro billet, blaster coil, wires. Just redone 906 heads with hard seats and oversize valves. The larger valves done by p.o. I've messed with 5 different carb setups from holley to edelbrock 550-850 cfm and absolutely no change. Great response once I get to that 3k rpm range. But before that it's a dog, three legged dog too. Oh did I mention 4:10 gears, no sure grip, and will not spin a tire!

I don't want to see you go thru what I've been dealing with. Hopefully yours is different. I'm pulling my 383 out and completely redo from ground up this winter.

Heads didn't help that issue.
Carbs didn't help
Cam didn't help - not wild but more than stock valve lift .480
Msd didn't fix, helped but didn't fix

My ultimate plan is to rebuild this one, find a 400 and stroke that bad boy and then drop that into the ole charger. If I could trade an 18 pack for a complete 400.... I'd splurge for a 30 pack!

Again don't want to discourage but make sure you look at everything about that 383. I think I finally figured out its too tight and more than likely ring and or ring land issues on the Pistons themselves!

Good luck!

 

[Cranky]

The 509 cam is what is making your PSI low on what already sounds like a compression engine and with 95-110, it's going to like a lot of timing. What are the settings now? Have you had it at the track for some testing? I've been sadly involved with two different low compression engines with similar type cams that liked over 20 initial and 50 total before they would respond decently so don't be afraid to bump the timing on up and see what it does....and trade a case of beer for that 400! No reason to be greedy lol. 600 bucks? Yup, pretty slim. Start hitting the swap meets and keep an eye on the classifieds. Done a few low buck builds before so it's not impossible but it might take awhile to amass the parts. My last cheap score was a brand new set of Isky adjustable rockers for 100 bucks but even that is nearly 18% of your budget.

 

[GearAddict]

Yeah... I guess the free 400 sounded good, because it looks in really good shape. We were guessing that it couldn't have had many miles on it since it was rebuilt as the block deck, cylinder walls and pistons look nearly pristine (I incorrectly stated above that it was stock bore... it is .030 over). If I had to guess, I'm thinking it has less than 3K miles on the motor.

The other benefit is that I know that I know that I can get it over 9:1 CR without any machining and I can build it up on a stand while the 383 is running.

I'm torn.

- - - Updated - - -

The 509 cam is what is making your PSI low on what already sounds like a compression engine and with 95-110, it's going to like a lot of timing. What are the settings now? Have you had it at the track for some testing? I've been sadly involved with two different low compression engines with similar type cams that liked over 20 initial and 50 total before they would respond decently so don't be afraid to bump the timing on up and see what it does....and trade a case of beer for that 400! No reason to be greedy lol. 600 bucks? Yup, pretty slim. Start hitting the swap meets and keep an eye on the classifieds. Done a few low buck builds before so it's not impossible but it might take awhile to amass the parts. My last cheap score was a brand new set of Isky adjustable rockers for 100 bucks but even that is nearly 18% of your budget.

Thanks Cranky, I've got the timing at 19 Deg - max 37 Deg, all in at 3000 RPMs. I have noticed that the motor continues to climb in revs as the initial timing is dialed all the way up to 30 Deg, but was concerned that puts the max timing at 48, which I thought is a no-no.

As for parts budget, I have everything except ring/bearings/gaskets, Cam/lifters, and maybe a new oil pump. That assumes that the 400 will be ok with just a hone and no mchine work required. I guess I'm kidding myself that the 400 is going to be ok without a rebuild.

 

[nm9stheham]

You just gotta tear one of them apart and see the bores' condtion; you can take out ring ridge but you can't take out taper in the bores, and the pistons' ring side clearance, those 2 items can worry rings to death in a short time and you will have wasted your time and money.

And if you spend a bit more on a 400 rebuild, then perhaps you can sell off the 400 if your buddy does not object and get the $$ back later; perhaps share the profits with him.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Address the low cranking pressure and you will have a good running engine. At this point don't use the cams I suggested unless you can get at least 9.5:1 CR. I built a low CR FE Ford and used an Edelbrock cam suited for that low compression. In my 8.5:1 Olds 455 I used an appropriate Crane cam. Both engines run great, blow about 160 PSI and run 87 R+M/2. If you want really low buck just change the cam to something that will deal with the low compression and use lead additive to protect the 516 heads. If this is a stop gap motor that's what I would do. One weekend and you're back on the road and don't even have to take the engine out. Also the mild cam with lift in the mid .4" will likely allow you to use the stock valve springs.

 

[1969CoronetR/T]

I bought a set of Indy EZ heads with a flat atppet cam shaft and wanted to install them over the winter. The machinist has to bore my block out as it is already .030 out. The crank is cast and is worn along with the bearings. I need an all new rotating assembly, but i will be going from 440 to a 496 cid. The flat tappet is being changed to a roller cam. The heads are not ported correctly (mediocre job) and the springs and retainers are too loose or too light for the engine. You will open the proverbial can or worms and I am running close to $18,000.00 so far for the heads, cam, machine work and labor. Good luck with your budget, but expect to go over by a fair amount.

 

[charger360]

I would pop the 906 heads on the 383 and drop a smaller cam in there, you would be surprised! the 509 is a lot of cam for that engine. I would then take that 400 and either build it up to sell it or stroke it and build it for your car. not often you can get a fairly fresh big block for a case of beer these days! it is like a gift to help you fund your project.

 

[wyrmrider]

509 is old and slow acting- go much shorter duration you are above 240 @50 now
check howards, ultradyne, engle .904 grinds there are a few comp but not many
.906 heads will kill your compression and low end but will work ok 3k and up
build the 400 but measure compression ht- deck clearance at all four corners and post back you could have a real 7.5 cr motor there in which case Jones is your best source for a cam with under 9:1 motor howards next best choice
no quench at your $$$ budget

 

[HT413]

I entered your info into Wallace racing's calculator and it looks like your 383 is about 8:1. That 509 cam is KILLING your cylinder pressure. If I had your budget, I'd do this:

Step 1: Keep the 383 and just swap out that cam and lifters for some thing more reasonable. COST: $300 or so.

Step 2: Buy that 400 from your buddy. COST: 18 beers

Step 3: Have the 400 assessed by a machine shop. COST: free to $100

Step 4: if the block and crank look good, save some cash to properly build the 400 as your 'final' engine for your car. Then put a 383 pie tin on it. If you want to go nuts, build a 451 stroker, you've already saved so much cash on the block, it makes more sense than building a 440. COST: ???

 

[dieseldazzle]

Maybe try just advancing the 509 cam and see how it runs. Also put some more timing into the motor see what happens. Thats pretty cheap to do....

 

[GearAddict]

Thanks for all the input guys... One question... Is the 509 cam actually effecting my ability to get an accurate static comp reading? Would I have to remove the rockers to get an actual comp reading?

 

[dieseldazzle]

Thanks for all the input guys... One question... Is the 509 cam actually effecting my ability to get an accurate static comp reading? Would I have to remove the rockers to get an actual comp reading?

If you take the rockers off then all of the valve events are null and void and are not what you are looking for my man.