Performer RPM or Victor 440?

[Sweet5ltr]

What intake would make the best performance, I already have the performer RPM?

440(.60)-451ci 10.5:1CR
Steel Crank, Six Pack Rods, and Hyper pistons.
750DP Holley/Proform main body/mtr plates. Was on a 430RWHP 347 Ford.
Edelbrock Performer RPM heads 84cc
Mopar .509/292 cam.
833-4 speed, w/ 4.10s.

I don't care much for idle-3,000, and prefer power where I would like to use it at 3,500-6,000. I know the RPM's flow .270-278cfm @ .500 lift, and I know that is over the flow limits of the stock performer RPM manifold. I have read tests online, where the Victor flat out dominated the RPM in total power on 500 wedges, making 30-40 more horsepower on the same build and under 6,000RPM. 1.6RR are possible in the future as well.

So, my question is: would a 451 build a considerable amount of additional power with the single plane intake over the RPM?

 

[lewtot184]

the sweet spot for the victor is probably 4000-7000rpm. definitely will kill some torque off below 3500rpm. if it were me and i was looking for top end, i'd ditch the hydraulic cam for a mechanical and get an 850 or 1000HP carb. a 950HP carb has the same venturi area as a 750. the 850 and 1000HP have a larger venturi area.

 

[67 coronet]

like lewtot184 said,your carb is too small to build real power.i would start there before you adress the intake.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

the sweet spot for the victor is probably 4000-7000rpm. definitely will kill some torque off below 3500rpm. if it were me and i was looking for top end, i'd ditch the hydraulic cam for a mechanical and get an 850 or 1000HP carb. a 950HP carb has the same venturi area as a 750. the 850 and 1000HP have a larger venturi area.

How much horsepower could I possibly be holding back, that is worth nearly $1,000 for a 4500 series carburetor and breather setup (the only one I would step up to). The carburetor has a proform main body, proform billet base plate, proform metering block, and already has the correct power valve and jets.

$1,500-$2,000 for a good solid setup. Is it really worth it, considering the car is not going to be turning over 6,000RPM?
You can purchase .580+ lift camshafts from hughes in hyd. flat tappet configuration.

Just looking at it in realistic factors.

 

[67 B-body]

I'm with the other guys on this one.... I think you'll find your engine will want more CFM than your 750 will give.
Mine is dying for more carb running an 850 DP Holley! I have decided that when money is available, I would put the adapter on mine and run a 4500 series carb just because of this.
I need other things first though, so it will wait.
BTW, I like the Victor intake myself and I think you will too!

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I'm with the other guys on this one.... I think you'll find your engine will want more CFM than your 750 will give.
Mine is dying for more carb running an 850 DP Holley! I have decided that when money is available, I would put the adapter on mine and run a 4500 series carb just because of this.
I need other things first though, so it will wait.
BTW, I like the Victor intake myself and I think you will too!

Would the Proform main body make absolutely no difference as far as airflow is concerned? I believe it's modeled after the HP series main body. It's only 50cfm off the recommended amount for a 451 turning 6,000RPM.

 

[MoparLife]

I have tried almost every intake know to man and I still keep going back to the old TM6 Edelbrock (on my 383). I tried the Eddy Victor and my car slowed almost 2 tenths at the track. Spent hours trying to tune and make the numbers back up, sold the intake and the antique went back on. I run the RPM heads as well and a 850 AED carb. If you need a really good deal on a carb let me know, I recently became a AED Distributor.

As for your set-up, I agree with the above members, go with the Victor!!

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I have tried almost every intake know to man and I still keep going back to the old TM6 Edelbrock (on my 383). I tried the Eddy Victor and my car slowed almost 2 tenths at the track. Spent hours trying to tune and make the numbers back up, sold the intake and the antique went back on. I run the RPM heads as well and a 850 AED carb. If you need a really good deal on a carb let me know, I recently became a AED Distributor.

As for your set-up, I agree with the above members, go with the Victor!!

I went with the Victor, found one on the Moparts board for a great price and sent the payment this morning.

I noticed an older intake comparison, that shown maximum airflow numbers and the Performer RPM was limited to 260cfm without porting. The Victor flowed over 270cfm. Using this data, the RPM I currently have would be at their limit, using a .500 lift camshaft with the Performer RPM Cylinder Heads.

 

[lewtot184]

How much horsepower could I possibly be holding back, that is worth nearly $1,000 for a 4500 series carburetor and breather setup (the only one I would step up to). The carburetor has a proform main body, proform billet base plate, proform metering block, and already has the correct power valve and jets.

$1,500-$2,000 for a good solid setup. Is it really worth it, considering the car is not going to be turning over 6,000RPM?
You can purchase .580+ lift camshafts from hughes in hyd. flat tappet configuration.

Just looking at it in realistic factors.

there's more to carbs than cfm ratings. most carbs are over rated and wet flow is probably 10% less than advertised. a 950hp will only dry flow around 850cfm. i still look at venturi area vs cubic inches. if you like what you got than go for it. personally i don't care for all the add on parts unless you have a class restriction. if you need more then you need something bigger. you could do a roller for $1500 but i wasn't reffering to a roller. you have a flat tappet so i was thinking flat tappet solid. now your saying 6000rpm, i assumed you were looking to really twist it up. maybe you need to run the rpm intake, keep the hydraulic and small carb, go to the track see what you have before you spend any money.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

there's more to carbs than cfm ratings. most carbs are over rated and wet flow is probably 10% less than advertised. a 950hp will only dry flow around 850cfm. i still look at venturi area vs cubic inches. if you like what you got than go for it. personally i don't care for all the add on parts unless you have a class restriction. if you need more then you need something bigger. you could do a roller for $1500 but i wasn't reffering to a roller. you have a flat tappet so i was thinking flat tappet solid. now your saying 6000rpm, i assumed you were looking to really twist it up. maybe you need to run the rpm intake, keep the hydraulic and small carb, go to the track see what you have before you spend any money.

Yes, I understand that. I fully am aware that I could build more power with a 850cfm carburetor, but is it worth $800 to build an additional 15 horsepower at the flywheel?

Going to roller, just isn't really an option at the moment. I would like to run the Mopar .590 mechanical flat tappet, but that is for another weekend ;)

 

[john.thompson068]

Now that you have both manifolds, you must test them both out and report your findings here.

 

[67 coronet]

hope the manifold works out for you.as far as cfm choices in carbs,i have seen a well tuned 440 gain 96 horsepower simply by going from a 750 to an 850 on a dyno.sure there was alot of tuning involved,but we just where not getting the numbers out of the 750.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Now that you have both manifolds, you must test them both out and report your findings here.

Will do!

 

[67 coronet]

That is ridiculous! If it was a well tuned, .700+ lift solid roller cammed, ported Indy headed engine then I could understand. I couldn't see it going from 525HP (est.) to 620HP with a carburetor swap with a .509 camshaft but I believe it could be possible on a very high-end build.

sure it was a very hot eng,but in referance you are talking about a flow difference of only about 7 cfm per cylinder in each runner.plus the large open chamber is gonna bog down your lower end torque on the street motor.the victor manifold likes alot of velocity to flow well.victors work fantastic on a motor that revs and revs well,i am running one on my current 383.i have run many intake and carb setups and for a mild street motor i have always gotten better power and responce out of split plane intakes rather then open ones.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

sure it was a very hot eng,but in referance you are talking about a flow difference of only about 7 cfm per cylinder in each runner.plus the large open chamber is gonna bog down your lower end torque on the street motor.the victor manifold likes alot of velocity to flow well.victors work fantastic on a motor that revs and revs well,i am running one on my current 383.i have run many intake and carb setups and for a mild street motor i have always gotten better power and responce out of split plane intakes rather then open ones.

I'm currently looking at some of the large hughes hydraulic flat tappet camshafts. Do they have the advance ground into them like the competition cams (other than their 305 grind).

I just don't believe I would make much more power with a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft above 6,000rpm, but I would like to make the most available above 3,500rpm and that is why I went with the Victor. I believe the smaller 750 will create more flow velocity than a larger carburetor with the single plane intake manifold.

 

[john.thompson068]

Will do!

Now keep in mind that I have not read any muscle car magazines in ten years so I am no longer up to date on the latest stuff. But looking at your combination, and from what I remember reading all those years ago, I would put my money on the RPM for overall power plus drivability. Take a look at this link. You will need a long time to read it as it is very long and came from this same forum from a similar post a few weeks back. I have the RPM intake and RPM heads both stock and with a 4150 and Comp 305 H cam my 446 ci 10.5:1 motor started the dyno pull at 3800 rpm with 535 ft lbs, peaked at 560 ft lbs at 4600 rpm, still had 500 ft lbs at 5700 rpm, and made a peak of 540 hp at 5700 rpm. From what I remember reading, the RPM manifold was the undefeated champion on mild pump gas race motors like ours.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0601em_intake/viewall.html

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Now keep in mind that I have not read any muscle car magazines in ten years so I am no longer up to date on the latest stuff. But looking at your combination, and from what I remember reading all those years ago, I would put my money on the RPM for overall power plus drivability. Take a look at this link. You will need a long time to read it as it is very long and came from this same forum from a similar post a few weeks back. I have the RPM intake and RPM heads both stock and with a 4150 and Comp 305 H cam my 446 ci 10.5:1 motor started the dyno pull at 3800 rpm with 535 ft lbs, peaked at 560 ft lbs at 4600 rpm, still had 500 ft lbs at 5700 rpm, and made a peak of 540 hp at 5700 rpm. From what I remember reading, the RPM manifold was the undefeated champion on mild pump gas race motors like ours.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0601em_intake/viewall.html

Thank you for the article, but the article was for SBC! ;)
All jokes aside, here is one of the articles I have been researching..
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0801_mopar_intake_manifolds/

517HP for the Victor (peak), 505HP for the RPM (peak). The RPM did great with factory heads, but wasn't the top choice for the 383 and RPM Heads by a very small margin. I expect with a 440, the margin would even have been greater.

Victor-Average 5,000-6,500: 445 lb-ft, 486 hp
RPM- Average 5,000-6,500: 444 lb-ft, 485 hp

Here is another Link:http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...nifold_engine_and_rpm_range_test/viewall.html

Victor-
Avg. hp 4,000-6,600 rpm: 568.1 hp
Avg. Tq 4,000-6,600 rpm: 570.1 lb-ft

RPM-
Avg. hp 4,000-6,600 rpm: 555.9 hp
Avg. Tq 4,000-6,600 rpm: :555.4 lb-ft

 

[67 B-body]

The article I read a year ago showed gains over all other intakes tested "including the ol' reliable TM6" when comparing to the Victor intake.
This is the very reason I chose this intake myself.... I have a 446" engine that I have ran up to 6500rpm, and it was still pulling pretty hard at this point! I have a balanced lower assy with steel crank, Scatt H-Beam rods, Main stud girdle, and .140" Domed forged pistons, so I can do this pretty easily. My cam is the MP .590 solid cam and 1.6 ratio rockers on top of that with Victor aluminum heads.
By the way,,, I can drive this on the street too... At least I could until last week when I twisted the trans in two pieces.... HMMM??? My fault though!

I had an easy ten second pass going when the trans broke,,,, I spun bad on launch too and turned a 10.67 ET.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

The article I read a year ago showed gains over all other intakes tested "including the ol' reliable TM6" when comparing to the Victor intake.
This is the very reason I chose this intake myself.... I have a 446" engine that I have ran up to 6500rpm, and it was still pulling pretty hard at this point! I have a balanced lower assy with steel crank, Scatt H-Beam rods, Main stud girdle, and .140" Domed forged pistons, so I can do this pretty easily. My cam is the MP .590 solid cam and 1.6 ratio rockers on top of that with Victor aluminum heads.
By the way,,, I can drive this on the street too... At least I could until last week when I twisted the trans in two pieces.... HMMM??? My fault though!

I had an easy ten second pass going when the trans broke,,,, I spun bad on launch too and turned a 10.67 ET.

I'm very surprised! The Performer RPM is a great intake manifold, but I am surprised you didn't go to an Indy manifold with the victor heads. I believe it's really all about combination. I needed a new intake manifold regardless, since the old intake was over ten years old, painted hemi orange, and was pretty weathered underneath the coating. I just have always liked the Victor design.

Should be wheels up with that kind of E.T. :headbang:

 

[rumblefish360]

Your right, it is about the combo. Do not put to much into the "Facts" on cfm ratings of carbs and intakes as tested here and there. While there good to know, this info can cause you to over think the issues. Which, this is what I think your doing now. And for a good reason!!!!

You bring up the question, "Is it worth it for *** HP to do this swap?"

The answer is yes for some, no for others and the rest.... is it in your pocket to do and do you really care? Do you need the extra power?

Anytime the search for more power comes around, it always costs money. And the more power you make, the more money you spend. The more power you make, the less return on the dollar you get for the amount of power returned.

When your making (For example only, but the example is a true and valid one)
400 hp, to make another 50 - 70 hp is *** amount.

BUT, going from 1500hp to 1700hp is going to be 10X's the amount and without promise.