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pinging 440

MikeyT

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Hi All,

I was curious if all pinging was due to increased compression or is their other culprits? I have a 496 with 10.5:1 compression 440 source aluminum heads and moderately wild cam Comp XE284 cam with 1.6 roller rockers, 650 holley double pumper, MSD box and molar performance distributor. Ran nice but starts to cut out and ping like crazy when floored.

I am just curious is this too much compression (seems implausible considering the relatively low comp with aluminum heads) other issues?

I am looking for opinions on where to look.

Thanks,

Mike
 
What gasoline are you using? May need higher octane
 
I've worked with engines that had more 11-1 compression on pump gas. Don't have any experience with that cam but I suspect your cranking PSI is pretty high with it. Have you checked it? Also, your carb is pretty small for that engine but it can work. What is your jetting etc? What's your ignition AND cam timing set at? We need much more info than what you initially listed....
 
Ignition timing is very relevant to this problem. Agree with Cranky, your 10.5:1 shouldn't be a problem with decent gas. I built a 499 with 11.3:1 compression and it runs great on 93 octane premium. But I don't think I'd want the ratio any higher than what it is without using race fuel.
 
What Cranky and Mopar & Missiles suggested. I have a slightly different intake lobe, but similar exhaust lobe on a 10.5 452. The dynamic compression on mine is very high >200-225 PSI, and it will ping with more than 30-32 degrees total ignition timing when using 93 octane pump gas.
I found my car runs much smoother with ~20 initial, but that pushed the total up so the advance curve was important to get it running nicely at idle and at WOT.
 
look for oil or water in the chambers and do a cylinder pressure check. in my opinion, a true 10.5:1 with clean chambers will be well over 11:1 with some carbon; i don't think that's pump gas friendly with any cylinder head material. this is why i built a 9.75:1 alum head engine. it'll be well over 10:1 with carbon but is very pump gas friendly.
 
I have been here.

What may help is to replace the "Molar" distributor. Teeth do a terrible job of distributing spark.



Kidding. My Iphone changes MOPAR to Molar.
Back on topic: The MP distributor has a REAL fast curve and light weights. It provides about 28 degrees of advance in a very short time. The amount of advance needs to be limited and the rate of advance needs to be slowed down. Mallory ignition made these distributors for Mopar engines. They also sell a kit to tune them. You need to replace the advance springs with stiffer ones that slow down the rate of advance. Then, the kit includes plastic "feeler" guages to set the total amount of advance the distributor will give. It is not a difficult job.
Example:
If your distributor is stock from the box, you install it and set the static timing to say...10 degrees BTDC, the total timing will end up at 38 degrees before 2300 rpms. Any engine with a mild to moderate cam will need 15 degrees or more initial timing. Setting to 15 degrees to get a good idle puts you at 43 degrees total. This is WAY too much! Most Big Block Mopars run best between 32 to 36 degrees. This means that you have to shorten & reduce the total amount of advance the distributor delivers. I have this distributor in my 440/493. I have mine set to 19 degrees initial with 33 total. That is a 14 degree curve. Again, the stock setting allows 28 degrees of advance! I also replaced the springs with stiffer ones so that the advance comes in a little later. Who needs all the advance in by 2300 rpms? If one has a 3000 stall converter or higher, what sense does it make to have all the advance in 1000 rpms earlier?

I has trouble with detonation for awhile and asked for help here and on other sites. Some people were very helpful but very few were able to clearly explain what to do. So often there is a disconnect between what a person means to say and what they actually say. They feel that they are helping but their message comes out wrong or details get left out.

My setup was different than yours in a few areas but still very similar. I have a 440 block, 4.15 stroke crank. Pistons sat .012 below deck with Edelbrock heads. They had been resurfaced a few times so they showed less than their advertised 84 cc chambers. Mine were closer to 82 ccs. I have 2" TTI headers, an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, 850 Demon and at first, the famous MP 292/509 cam. I later tried an aggressive Lunati solid lifter 316/326. I now have the MP 284/528 solid.
My calculated compression ratio was at 10.99. The engine made great power but would ping/knock at full throttle. I ran 110 octane gas one time and it did not knock at all. I didn't want to deal with race gas and the limited availability so I looked for another way out. The distributor mods helped some but it was not enough. I ended up installing thicker head gaskets to lower the compression. SOME guys online swore that it would not help, that it could run worse....Not true in my case. In the 2 years I have had this setup, the only knock/ping I have had was on an old tank of gas in the summer and it was barely noticeable. On the next tank of gas, there was no knock.
 
In all of my ramblings above I see that I was not as clear as I intended. More info:

My take is that there are several factors that lead to the condition that you describe.
Knock. Ping. Detonation... they all mean the same to me. What is actually happening is that the engine is seeing a premature spark occur in one or more cylinders, disrupting the normal combustion cycle. There can be several things causing it as well as several "fixes" needed to stop it.

Low octane fuel can cause detonation.
High compression can too.
A mild camshaft in a high compression engine is the worst!
A carburetor adjusted too "lean" can cause detonation.
I have read from guys claiming that they were somehow able to run at or near 11 to 1 compression on pump gas. The best we get out here in California is 91 except for the few stations that have 100 octane for $7.00 or more per gallon.
These guys running 11 to 1 must have their setups tuned to he edge of perfection because that is impressive. I'm talking optimized fuel curves, spark curves, cooling system, etc.
I am not that talented! I'm a decent wrench but I decided that I'd rather tune mine with some leeway in case I'm on a road trip and end up with a batch of mid grade 89 octane.

Oh yeah, the 650 double pumper is not the right carb for the job. A vacuum secondary is better for the street. A 750 would be a minimum size with the 850 being ideal. A stock 72-78 440 used an 850 Thermoquad. 50 more cubic inches and more cam need more than a 650 carburetor.
 
detonation is where maximum cylinder pressure occurs too soon in the power stroke. there are a multitude of factors that can contribute to detonation. the easiest cure is higher octane gas. prevention/detonation resistance should be well thought out during the planning process off a build.
 
detonation is where maximum cylinder pressure occurs too soon in the power stroke. there are a multitude of factors that can contribute to detonation. the easiest cure is higher octane gas. prevention/detonation resistance should be well thought out during the planning process off a build.
And ping is where you have two colliding flame fronts due to poor cylinder design or lack of decent quench? There is a lot of info printed about the subject of detonation, ping and quench.

One engine that I worked with was a small block which had cast iron heads but there was a lot of work done to them. Pistons were Ross (iirc) flat tops and the cam was a custom grind and yes, lots of tuning took place. Funny gas was also used on it but it was a very small shot. It wasn't a cake walk by any means. The engine was for a buddy of mine and he did most of the tuning on it. Me, I don't have the patient for that kind of stuff lol. An engine for me would have been built at a bit lower compression and used aluminum heads but he wanted to do it and try to extract as much HP from it as he could and still look stock with the cast iron heads. He didn't want to lighten the car any either. The only thing he changed on the body was a glass hook with a cowl scoop. At 3600 without him in it, it was a bit on the heavy side imo.
 
some years back i tried to read and study as much as i could on detonation; looking for the silver bullet. i never found the silver bullet but found many causes. detonation is like a cancer. prevention is the only logical course of action. you can't built a detonation proof engine, but you can build an engine with a lot of detonation resistance. the large bore mopar big blocks have issues because of the bore size and we are blessed with the crummiest combustion chambers man could devise, next to a flat head ford,....lol.. the spark plug is in a terrible location and open chambers are impossible without quench dome pistons. in the end i just reverted back to the old direct connection engine manuals. your better off with a lower compression ratio that can handle some timing than a high compression ratio that timing has to be retarded. i also took some ques from non-mopar engine people. their take was no more than 1/2-5/8 of a point increase in compression with alum heads vs iron for pump gas. this has worked well for me. from things i've read these big block mopar 10.5:1-11:1 engines with clean chambers eventually self destruct. keep in mind that just ten thousandths of an inch of carbon build up will up the static compression ratio over 1/2 point, and nobody studies the closing point on the intake valve, and everybody has to have some jive *** camshaft that makes problems worse. furthermore, how much of all these "bad habits" are constantly perpetuated by the internet and magazine "motor messiahs"?
 
Your post is based on a pump gas engine, right? And the first things I look at is the opening point of the intake valve and the closing point. I don't even pretend to be a cam guru and will consult with a buddy of mine before using something that's out of the ordinary and will generally ask him his opinion on something that I'm not real sure about with the stuff that is more ordinary......and especially so with split lift and duration cams.
 
How many of us has owned a factory engine that pinged from running a lower octane. Engines that were designed to run on pump gas and didn't like the cheaper fuel. I'm referring to 1980's and 1990's vehicles. My 2003 Dodge Ram, 5.7 Hemi requires non ethanol fuel, per the owners manual.
 
How many of us has owned a factory engine that pinged from running a lower octane. Engines that were designed to run on pump gas and didn't like the cheaper fuel. I'm referring to 1980's and 1990's vehicles. My 2003 Dodge Ram, 5.7 Hemi requires non ethanol fuel, per the owners manual.
Started having problems in the 70's even when Chrysler reduced the compression ratios a lot for 71. Only two engines maintained high compression and that was the Hemi and the 340 but even they were reduced some but when the compression got really low, they dieseled when you shut them off and pinged like crazy under acceleration.
 
The engine design isn't correct. With that static compression ratio and that small of a camshaft you are into detonation range on pump gas, even premium. What style piston are you using, flat top, dished? What is the cranking compression? Timing? Fuel mixture?

The idea that you can run more compression because the heads are aluminum is not true. If you notice, those aluminum heads made for Chryslers have closed combustion chambers rather than the old style open chambers. There is the greatest difference. You can negate the benefit by using a flat top with a large negative deck height or a thick head gasket.

You are getting a lot of good advice over on Moparts and you'll have to take advantage of all of it because I believe the engine is on the edge with that cam and compression.
 
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Ditch that carb...... I have an 800 on my stock but cam 440... Out of the box carb... Runs great plugs look perfect.... I would try an 850 for yours......
 
Yeah, if it helps any for comparison, we run a 950 cfm carburetor on a street driven 423 ci small block.
 
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