Please help, lifter rattle won't go away

[747mopar]

Alright, hears what I've done twice with the same result "I know, doing the same thing twice and expecting different results is the definition of insanity". First I better tell you what I have, it's a 451 (400)BB with a Comp Cam 21-224-4 kit (matching hyd lifters) with Comp Cam Magnum rockers. I adjusted each cyl at a time, the intake when the exhaust just started to open and the exhaust while the intake was at max lift. I spun the pushrods while I adjusted the the rockers until I felt a little friction (zero lash) and then another 1/2 turn (.020 preload). Hears where I think the problem is, at zero lash I can still very easily depress the lifter by hand "very easily", if I go a little farther then I can feel it get really firm. It almost feels like there is a small amount of light spring tension before I actually start depressing the lifter. If this is the case I will likely end up needing new pushrods as I have about 4 threads sticking out of the bottom at that point. I've built several motors and never recall having this problem, usually zero lash and then the preload and your good. Also because of these issues I haven't been able to run it for any long periods of time (I probably got 20 minutes on it keeping rpm's between 2,500-3,000) what are the odds of damaging the cam (I used Lucas break in additive). Help please

 

[WP29440SE]

are you sure it isn't a timing issue?

 

[bm02tj]

Sounds like low oil or bad lifters that are not pumping up
try with zero lash as the lifter may have traveled passed the oil hole so lifter will not pump up

 

[RustyRatRod]

I absolutely ABHORE the valve adjustment method you describe. It's confusing and very easy to make a mistake with. Here's how I've done it thirty years and it's always worked for me. I do them one at the time. I turn the engine until the pushrod side of the rocker is on the base circle of the cam lobe. When the rocker closes the valve, I turn the crank about 15 more degrees. This gets the lifter dead on the base circle of that lobe. Then I adjust and repeat 15 more times. Time consuming? Maybe. But for ME it cuts down on error.

As far as your pushrods. Get one of the valves closed and the lifter on the base circle with the method described above. Loosen the rocker adjuster. Now, tighten it until there is no play in the pushrod. Don't judge by spinning the pushrod. Again, another extremely misleading guide. How it got to be the "industry standard" is beyond me. What I do is wiggle the pushrod up and down and keep adjusting until I can no longer get any vertical play in the pushrod. Bam, there's zero lash. Now, wirth that rocker at zero lash, look at the position of the rocker arm tip or roller on the valve stem. Notice WHERE it is. In the center? Towards the outside? Towards the inside? Report back and let us know. You may need a different length pushrod to put the rocker in the right spot on the valve tip.

 

[747mopar]

I absolutely ABHORE the valve adjustment method you describe. It's confusing and very easy to make a mistake with. Here's how I've done it thirty years and it's always worked for me. I do them one at the time. I turn the engine until the pushrod side of the rocker is on the base circle of the cam lobe. When the rocker closes the valve, I turn the crank about 15 more degrees. This gets the lifter dead on the base circle of that lobe. Then I adjust and repeat 15 more times. Time consuming? Maybe. But for ME it cuts down on error.

As far as your pushrods. Get one of the valves closed and the lifter on the base circle with the method described above. Loosen the rocker adjuster. Now, tighten it until there is no play in the pushrod. Don't judge by spinning the pushrod. Again, another extremely misleading guide. How it got to be the "industry standard" is beyond me. What I do is wiggle the pushrod up and down and keep adjusting until I can no longer get any vertical play in the pushrod. Bam, there's zero lash. Now, wirth that rocker at zero lash, look at the position of the rocker arm tip or roller on the valve stem. Notice WHERE it is. In the center? Towards the outside? Towards the inside? Report back and let us know. You may need a different length pushrod to put the rocker in the right spot on the valve tip.

What is ABHORE? The last time I readjusted them I did the up and down thing with the pushrod and zero lash was in the same place as it was the way I was doing it, I tried both methods on the same pushrods to see if there was a difference "same result". The method of WHEN to adjust, I got out of a Mopar Performance book that I have, the method you stated makes perfectly good sense though. As far as the rocker tip contact goes, I checked that when I built the motor "perfect" travels evenly over the center. Now even though I don't need any adjusting there I would love to hear how changing pushrod length changes that. They have a fixed pivot point meaning, longer pushrod would equal valve not closing or just having to much preload, shorten the pushrod and then you would have to crank your adjusters way out. Sorry, I never understood how changing pushrod length on a fixed pivot point rocker would achieve the correct geometry. Let's say you have a solid lifter cam and you have the lash set correctly but the valve contact is not correct so you put a longer pushrod in "now your valve is open" shorten it and you have to much slop. I'm under the understanding that correct pushrod length is the length that gives you one thread of the rocker adjuster under the body. Super77, I set timing at 14 degrees just as a starting point, it sounds great and I mostly hear all the noise coming from the passenger side. bmo2tj, I have a 7 qt oil pan that is full and have 75 psi of oil pressure, the lifters feel like they pumped up (you can feel a very distinct spot in the adjustment as it starts depressing the pumped up lifter) unfortunately this spot isn't until you are past where it should be. I need to do a little better job of explaining this, If you had one of these lifters sitting on a bench and pushed down on the center (with it pumped up) it would travel down very easily a very small amount before you felt any real resistance. It is really confusing seeing how I done this many times on other motors and never had a problem.

 

[tallhair]

What is ABHORE?

It means he really hates it a lot, is pretty disgusted by it and couldn't think of a stronger word. Alternate spelling is 'abhor'

 

[747mopar]

It means he really hates it a lot, is pretty disgusted by it and couldn't think of a stronger word

Gotcha, figured it wasn't a compliment but never heard it before.

 

[bm02tj]

If you can pump up then push down and have lifter compress with little effort they are bad

 

[RustyRatRod]

Gotcha, figured it wasn't a compliment but never heard it before.

It wasn't aimed at you. lol Just the adjustment method. I've seen people with YEARS experience use it before and totally get valve adjustment so far out, they bent pushrods when pistons hit valves.

"Mostly coming from the passenger's side" Might be worth the trouble to make sure that right side is getting oil from the cam bearing. If someone misaligned tat bearing, there could be your trouble.

 

[67 coronet]

if all the lifters have that problem then i would call the manufacturer and explain the problem to them.those lifters,when pumped up,should not have a soft spot at the bigining or anywere else for that matter.

 

[RustyRatRod]

A lifter is a pretty simple beast. You're gonna be hard pressed to have an entire set of bad lifters......even more than one. I think the problem is somewhere else. Good luck.

 

[747mopar]

I checked the oil supply to the rockers when I was priming the pump, they got oil. I agree they are pretty simple and you shouldn't have a whole set of bad ones which has me wondering if these are different somehow, I'll talk to Comp Cam and see what they say. And yes they all feel the same "soft at the top". All I know is I'll be a little ticked if I have to buy another set of pushrods because of it.

 

[747mopar]

Did it all over, when I opened it up I could move some of the rockers by hand "no good". I read Comp Cams recommendations on setting preload on the lifters, they recommend the method I used only .045 preload (1 full turn). So I did it all over adjusting it to .045 thinking it may help "nope still rattling". It still sounds like the passenger side and I held my hand down around the header gasket "can't feel any leaks". At this point I think I'm going to pull the intake, lifters and distributor so I can run the pump and make sure it's getting oil, then again it seems like they have oil because they are stiff just not at the top. I may just wait until Monday when Comps open and talk to them. This has got me worried about the cam break in (not ever being able to run it for long) I guess if I open it up I can inspect the lifters and cam. Man this really sucks

 

[67 coronet]

crap,i hate stuff like that.at this point you may be better off loosing the day and talking to them first,just to make sure it is not something simple.you never know what you can overlook.

 

[daredevil]

Comp had a bad run of lifters a couple years back.And some cams with ramps that were noisy.

 

[Garys1969RR]

With all the valve spring pressure off the lifters, and oil in the lifters, the plunger should pump up all the way to the top. There should be no slight movement in the lifter plunger. With my rocker arms off my 451, just spinning the engine with the starter builds oil pressure. Try this, and if you still have plunger movement you prob have the wrong lifters. I believe there are 2 different hyd lifters available for that cam. Not sure what or why, but it may have be the way oil is fed to the lifter. We used that same cam in a 383, using the old lifters that the motor came with. Stock rocker gear, and it all works great! You could always try the stock rocker arms to see if that helps. Good luck!

 

[RustyRatRod]

Gary's right as rain. I forget where the split is, I wanna say 1966 and before take one lifter and 67 and after take another.....but I'm not sure. I do know there's an early and late lifter. Good goin Gary.

 

[747mopar]

With all the valve spring pressure off the lifters, and oil in the lifters, the plunger should pump up all the way to the top. There should be no slight movement in the lifter plunger. With my rocker arms off my 451, just spinning the engine with the starter builds oil pressure. Try this, and if you still have plunger movement you prob have the wrong lifters. I believe there are 2 different hyd lifters available for that cam. Not sure what or why, but it may have be the way oil is fed to the lifter. We used that same cam in a 383, using the old lifters that the motor came with. Stock rocker gear, and it all works great! You could always try the stock rocker arms to see if that helps. Good luck!

This sounds like the most likely answer to fit the symptom's. I'll look into it, does anyone know the difference in the lifters so I can pull one and check it? I hope they are the same in height so I don't have to buy new pushrods. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll be sure to let you know what I find. Thanks

 

[RustyRatRod]

I don't have a pic, but I found this description.

"67 and back they used a tapered pushrod that was longer the pushrod was deeper in the lifter, i dont know why they were different , i have run in to that when cam and liftering 67 motors. just order new pushrods."

If that's true, I bet you have the early lifters and the shorter later pushrods. I was off by a year on the split. Sorry bout that.

 

[747mopar]

I don't have a pic, but I found this description.

"67 and back they used a tapered pushrod that was longer the pushrod was deeper in the lifter, i dont know why they were different , i have run in to that when cam and liftering 67 motors. just order new pushrods."

If that's true, I bet you have the early lifters and the shorter later pushrods. I was off by a year on the split. Sorry bout that.

I ordered custom pushrods to get the proper fit "great" if that is the case and Comp sent the wrong lifters I'm telling them I want new pushrods as well. Lets not jump the gun yet, so far I've had nothing but good luck with they're products and I need to check it out. Thanks for the info, I was hoping someone would have some answers for me. I'll let you know "probably not until next weak".