Poor Brakes on my '64

[fullmetaljacket]

I bought new organic brake shoes, they sucked.
I found pics I took, the nos ones are Raybestos, the box states asbestos free, but not sure if they are organic or not. My guess is semi-metallic.

The last pic are semi-metallic I bought from summit which are for a 65. Similar, but not the same, specifically the upper spring hole isn't round, and it's not as far back.
I tried those on the front, and with a different spring one side worked, and the other side would not no matter what I tried.
Wasn't sure if the 65 backing plates are different from 64, I was going to order a 65 spring/hardware kit, then I found the nos shoes.

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So just too reiterate, you're saying that your car now stops better with the Raybestos NOS liners correct?

The brake shoes with the upper spring square hole are for the '69 and up models and I believe for the rears only. I could be wrong. My friend "Special K" knows all about these things. They will not work with the return/tension spring supplied for the early 60's round hole style. A longer spring can be used but for one sided as you mentioned.

 

[oldbee]

Forgetting the beginning of thread, but are you sure the drums are round? Maybe take off .005” on a drum lathe for starters. Still have OE drums on front & replacement rears(from years ago) and no problems on mine. They’re not discs, but still stop real good. Otherwise, I think you have a pressure drop somewhere.

 

[Ron H]

Joining in as like to hear how this is going as I'm dealing with brake hassles. One thing that I thought of as is posted, is air in the MC ensuring it had a quality bleed. This is next on my list as was told that air in MC will act as described; but the piddly fluid flow at rears are real suspect..

 

[Dave145]

I will try bleeding the MC again and see if it makes a difference. This will be at least the second time I've bled this master, and the one I had in before it was bled two or three times as well.

I'll also grab a vacuum bleeder and bleed the brakes that way too once everything gets hooked back up.

The rear drums are two years old and have about 10,000 miles on them max.

The fronts are original and have been turned.

I can't believe that I'd have to find NOS shoes just to make this car stop. I don't really have an unlimited budget for this car, so NOS parts (especially like that!) are unfortunately out of my reach at this time.

I've rebuilt many, many, many brake systems on these old cars and trucks, that's why it baffles me that this one just doesn't do anything!

 

[nitrojunkie]

I have a 64 sport fury that I rebuilt the manual brake system on. I converted from a single reservoir to a dual reservoir. I used a new master cylinder for a 1968 b body with 4 wheel drum brakes and new shoes installed also. They work fine. A couple of things come to mind. I have gotten brand new master cylinders right out of the box with trash in them below the reservoirs partially plugging the flow of fluid. Bench bled and the m/c 'popped' loud and trash shot out of it. I got another m/c. The second thing; my friend who had an alignment shop told me that he always filed the corners or edges of the shoes (top and bottom) because sometimes the drums contacted the corners first and don't contact the rest of the shoes very well resulting in poor braking even when a lot of pressure is applied. As I said I used new shoes and they stop fine.

 

[matthon]

So just too reiterate, you're saying that your car now stops better with the Raybestos NOS liners correct?

Yes, absolutely. Am I missing something here?
I believe I had a thread on it, or chimed into one some time ago, and some suggested going with nos asbestos shoes.

The first suggestion was my booster, which Dewey had just rebuilt. I called him and he agreed and asked me to send it back.

Tested fine, and he sent another vaccum hose. I thought that fixed it because somehow during it all I removed the correct hose for a longer incorrect hose.

Like the OP I found it hard to believe I needed old shoes to make it stop correctly, but I tried everything else.

I knew the old timer local guy had bought out a few parts stores decades ago, whether those can be considered nos or not I don't really care, just wrote nos to keep it short, they are definitely new, but old, and he had 1 complete set left in stock.

 

[Dave145]

Having gone through two masters already I sure hope there's not junk in both of them!

The brake system on the car has 10,000ish miles on it currently so I would hope the shoes are fitting the drums by now as well

 

[oldbee]

I will try bleeding the MC again and see if it makes a difference. This will be at least the second time I've bled this master, and the one I had in before it was bled two or three times as well.

I'll also grab a vacuum bleeder and bleed the brakes that way too once everything gets hooked back up.

The rear drums are two years old and have about 10,000 miles on them max.

The fronts are original and have been turned.

I can't believe that I'd have to find NOS shoes just to make this car stop. I don't really have an unlimited budget for this car, so NOS parts (especially like that!) are unfortunately out of my reach at this time.

I've rebuilt many, many, many brake systems on these old cars and trucks, that's why it baffles me that this one just doesn't do anything!

That’s why a lot of us are thinking pressure problem somewhere . My front shoes are semi-metallic with probably 20,000 on them, rears are just normal NAPA with 10-15,000 on them.

 

[Ron H]

Seems that the rear fluid pressure needs to be resolved; and you say you're unable to lock the brakes even on gravel? I'd think you would get lock up with the front's anyway. This kind of thing is often an issue with air. Might be since you say you have pedal travel half way down before any braking occurs, the pedal/rod could be out of adjustment meaning when you press the pedal it's somewhere short of its full travel thus not fully engaging the MC...I think this check has been posted here already if you haven't double checked this.

 

[Dave145]

I agree on that it could very well be a pressure problem. It almost has to be considering the whole system is relatively new. I will pick up a pressure gauge this week and give it a check.

 

[coloradodave]

Grinding the shoes to match the diameter of the drum is called "arcing". In years past we used to 'arc' the shoes on every drum we turned. It was standard procedure... Not saying that is your problem; just that it can't hurt...

 

[Dave145]

After 10,000 plus miles my assumption would be that the shoes have already worn to the size and shape of the drum. I guess I will find out when I take the drums off.

I just can't imagine it's an air problem though. After two masters and hours bleeding this system, how could it even be possible?

 

[bearman]

Dave, you might be surprised when you pull the drum off and find that only the top center part of the brake lining is worn. I still feel you have a blockage or pressure problem.

 

[Dave145]

Sorry if my replies have seemed short, typing on my dang phone sucks! Anyways, I will check it out. I wonder if it's something to do with the bore legth in the new masters compared to the original? Meaning the original was just a single little pot, now the new ones are almost twice as long?

I can feel the pushrod "snap" into the master bore. I have a non-adjustable push rod, so to temoparily lengthen it for testing purposes I have glued some 6/32" machine nuts to it to give it some extra length. I tried up to three nuts and it still didn't affect anything! So I'm kinda ruling that out...

As much as I'd like to hope for no more air, it's free to check out. It's been cold-ish up here lately, so I haven't gotten to work on the car as much as I want to. I will pull the MC and try bleeding again. Then I will bleed the car's lines again.

As for obstructions, I don't know what or where they could be. The lines are 100% new, and I had enough of the original lines left to be able to use them as templates to bend my new ones. Sure my new lines aren't as pretty and tightly bent as the originals but the shape is there and there are no hard kinks of any kind anywhere.

 

[bearman]

It's okay you'll get it done. When you figure it out your going to start laughing.

 

[khryslerkid]

Sorry if my replies have seemed short, typing on my dang phone sucks! Anyways, I will check it out. I wonder if it's something to do with the bore legth in the new masters compared to the original? Meaning the original was just a single little pot, now the new ones are almost twice as long?

I can feel the pushrod "snap" into the master bore. I have a non-adjustable push rod, so to temoparily lengthen it for testing purposes I have glued some 6/32" machine nuts to it to give it some extra length. I tried up to three nuts and it still didn't affect anything! So I'm kinda ruling that out...

As much as I'd like to hope for no more air, it's free to check out. It's been cold-ish up here lately, so I haven't gotten to work on the car as much as I want to. I will pull the MC and try bleeding again. Then I will bleed the car's lines again.

As for obstructions, I don't know what or where they could be. The lines are 100% new, and I had enough of the original lines left to be able to use them as templates to bend my new ones. Sure my new lines aren't as pretty and tightly bent as the originals but the shape is there and there are no hard kinks of any kind anywhere.

Like I stated in a earlier post, you want a little play in the rod. Don't adjust or lenthen it where it might have the piston already depressed. If the piston doesn't return to the C-clip that holds it in it won't be able to allow fluid to enter in front of the reservoir for the next shot.

 

[Dave145]

Right. Otherwise the brakes will drag and the master will always be partially engaged. The temporary lengthening of the rod was just for testing purposes to see if it would change anything.

The push rod just kind of pops into the back end of the master. It doesn't force it's way in and doesn't seem to be jammed in there at all.

 

[khryslerkid]

Right. Otherwise the brakes will drag and the master will always be partially engaged. The temporary lengthening of the rod was just for testing purposes to see if it would change anything.

The push rod just kind of pops into the back end of the master. It doesn't force it's way in and doesn't seem to be jammed in there at all.

Theres normally a square edge, rubber O-ring that holds the rod into the piston. (I don't have a pic of the O-ring)

 

[Dave145]

Yep, thats exactly what my rod looks like, minus the spring and cup! It does not have an O ring on it.

 

[493 Mike]

Usually a new retainer "rubber" comes with a rebuilt master cylinder. It looks like a short piece of vacuum hose and it usually is destroyed upon removal of the push rod from the piston. I use a little silicone grease to insert the push rod into the master cylinder. It won't pull out without a lot of effort.
Mike