Procharged 440?

[dieseldazzle]

Oh that's awesome thanks for the info, would you happen to have any links to the pdf download? I'm looking around but not having much luck. My procharger is a P1SC if that matters

ATI aka Procharger is weird when it comes to it. You can email them or call Summit. I didnt find anything online.

 

[HYRDGOON]

A LIL BOOST

Going the same route as our currently MIA Mr. Speedfreak (Where are you Speedy?!?!?) and resurrecting this thread instead of starting another just to gather information, opinions and educate myself. I've been getting very helpful information, advice and help from Kamcuda and Average Joe both guys run Prochargers on their Big Blocks

I've recently acquired a used D1X unit (approx 100 miles since rebuilt) with an assortment of brackets that would allow me to mount on either side and with doing a little scrounging everything that should work for a 12 Rib Serpentine. (will just need to get creative with the tensioner)

Just so I'm not misrepresenting myself I'm useless as a mechanic or technician so my questions on here are less technical and more informative so I can make the right choices and my eyes don't cross when someone is asking or explaining something to me in person. The guy that will be doing the install for me is knowledgable with boosted applications and about as good a technician as can be.

So my questions... Would you go intercooler / water Meth OR a combo of both and why? this one always seems to split ppl. Right now my head is saying just go with IC as I aim to run about 8 psi and an IC should be worry and maintenance free. The IC will likely be custom fabbed to fit and allow airflow to my rad (likely a split unit but lately I have this crazy idea of making some find of chin spolier IC??)

I'll likely be staying Carbureted and although I know there are benefits to EFI it's just not for me. I understand C&S is the blow thru carb to go with so if I come into some more $$ then I may look into that but since I'm already spending money I don't have then considering converting my new Quickfuel 780 to blow thru. Any recommendations here are welcome...

I want to stay under my stock hood which I think I can do with the Standard Carb Hat "Tallboy) 2 3/4" high but may opt for the low profile 2" to be safe. (measured off my carb to existing height of air cleaner lid and I have 3 1/4" there.

Motor is a 522" Stroker from CME approx 10:1 compression and currently cam grind is a 112 degree centerline installed at around 108.

Will consider Flatout spacers to lower compression but don't think it's needed with 8psi and an IC.

Car is 99% Street use and may make it down a track a couple times for fun but not looking to hook hard and break things.

 

[747mopar]

Haha, who doesn't want a little boost! Sorry can't help with advice, I'm probably the least educated in that department so I'm just on for the ride to see what I can learn. On second thought I better not follow along................ might save me some money. Good luck

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Dude that's awesome you scored one too!! Now I have someone flying blind alongside me hahaha

As far as IC and meth injection, based on everything I've read/researched I say you could get away without either one at 8 psi. An intercooler never hurts and the cooler the charge temp the better, but at 8 psi I wouldn't think temps would be that high to begin with? I have a procharger fmic that came with my $250 setup (still laughing about that) that I might run since there's a perfect space on the Charger between the grille assembly and core support thats begging to be taken up by an IC, but the coronet I saw online just ran the charge straight into the carb.

Sort of the same story on meth injection, not much point unless you get into the higher boost levels, and even then, the intercooler will carry you a little ways up into that range.

And yep C&S seems to be the blow-thru go-to, but being the shoestringer that I am, I'm taking a shot at building my own blow thru carb out of a 750 cfm Holley 4150, see how that works and go from there

I can dig around and see if I can link some of the articles I read on building your own, but the best one is probably the "hangar 18" one

 

[Hemirunner]

C&S is the way to go for blow through carbs. Roger came up and helped tune the 1600hp sbf I helped my buddy build. For a street car at 8 psi, you're right on the cusp of possible issues so I'd put an air to air on it and sleep better. We run air to water intercoolers but that's race car stuff to cool big hp.

 

[HYRDGOON]

Dude that's awesome you scored one too!! Now I have someone flying blind alongside me hahaha

As far as IC and meth injection, based on everything I've read/researched I say you could get away without either one at 8 psi. An intercooler never hurts and the cooler the charge temp the better, but at 8 psi I wouldn't think temps would be that high to begin with? I have a procharger fmic that came with my $250 setup (still laughing about that) that I might run since there's a perfect space on the Charger between the grille assembly and core support thats begging to be taken up by an IC, but the coronet I saw online just ran the charge straight into the carb.

Sort of the same story on meth injection, not much point unless you get into the higher boost levels, and even then, the intercooler will carry you a little ways up into that range.

And yep C&S seems to be the blow-thru go-to, but being the shoestringer that I am, I'm taking a shot at building my own blow thru carb out of a 750 cfm Holley 4150, see how that works and go from there

I can dig around and see if I can link some of the articles I read on building your own, but the best one is probably the "hangar 18" one

C&S is the way to go for blow through carbs. Roger came up and helped tune the 1600hp sbf I helped my buddy build. For a street car at 8 psi, you're right on the cusp of possible issues so I'd put an air to air on it and sleep better. We run air to water intercoolers but that's race car stuff to cool big hp.

I definitely didn't pay $250 for mine Speedy still not sure how you lucked into that deal but Good on ya!! Talking to CME they said there's absolutely no worry about my internals they'll take the boost just worried about detonation which I think at 10:1 at 8psi I'm with Hemirunner that I'm approaching a need to be better safe than sorry!

If I end up not converting my carb and buying one I think I'll shell out the extra and get a C&S since their reputation and products are so solid. If I factor in paying my tech to convert mine and the pieces to do it and the fact that I could sell my QF780 for ok money I think the difference it worth it.

The owner at Driven Performance that takes care of my car just built this custom IC for an 89 Vette... One of my least favorite cars but you can imagine space is an issue there so I was admiring the solution. Air is taken in through modified parking lights to vents and the front license plate folds down from wind pressure. It's a top shelf piece so thinking get him to make something that will work in mine.

 

[HYRDGOON]

Mr.SpeedFreak and I have had some pretty good convo going back and forth by PM learning about boosted applications and we both thought it may be a good idea to bring the convo back into this thread and get some other input from those in the know or those considering.

The conversation was related to this article: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-engine-build/

I was also sent this article by KamCuda that has some great pics of a typical install http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/...pr=13601527539

Some of the things for discussion were Do you need a higher CFM carb with boost than naturally aspirated??

Cog Drive vs. Serp for street use - Understand that Serp is superior for street use provided you have a really good tensioner since Cogs are hard on the head unit with too many start/stops.

Superiority of Single Plane intakes for Boosted applications - (Speedy research) Actually I've been digging around on the intake subject and yeah you're right, fuel distribution is supposed to be a lot better with the open plenum and long equal-length runners of a single plane. Supposedly the more common dual plane designs can suffer from fuel puddling at some of the tighter bends in the runners, and I'm guessing because of unequal runner length, they say most dual planes require staggered jetting (different size jet on each corner) for correct a/f under boost, which sounds to me like a royal pain in the *** to tune lol.
Luckily we have options! Lol, I dug around and did see it mentioned that the higher rpm powerband of most single planes is negated by the low rpm torque inherently added by constant boost from a supercharger. But whether that's true or not, here are the options I'm looking at:

Edelbrock Torker II- don't recall hearing much about this intake being used very often in N/A, which may say something, but looks like it would work ok for our type of setup. Looks a bit lower than the Victor which eould be good for underhood clearance. Operating range: 2500-6500 rpm, $240

Edelbrock Victor- looks a little taller than the torker II, but this is the intake they used in that hotrod article, operating range: 3500-7500 rpm which would probably be more thaN I would need on my engine. $290

Holley Street Dominator- currently sounding like a strong possibility for me, single plane, isolated equal length runners, but looks like the lowest rise out of the 3 or at least comparable to the torker II, but has an operating range of idle-6000 rpm. Hear people all the time talking it up as one of the best intakes for a street/strip N/A 440, so sounds like it could be the best of both worlds! $258


Just got off a great phone convo with Chase over at C&S and learning what more is involved. Changing my ignition to a programmable box from my Ready to Run that can be locked in and also (of course) getting rid of my mechanical fuel pump. The guys at C&S have it figured out and damn they are helpful!

I was also advised by them that low profile carb hats are way too restrictive and there really are only a couple hats that work optimally.

After that convo I simultaneously feel more smart and more broke!!

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Nice! Thanks for moving this convo over to the thread for me man haha. And on the subject of carb cfm for boosted application, I need to go back and double check in my Maximum Boost book (written about turbos but has a lot of useful info on any boosted application in general), but here is the formula I used when I mentioned calculating required cfm:



Now this is what I need to go back and double check in the book, but I believe for a "low boost" 8 psi application I used something like 90% (.9) or 100% (1) for the Volumetric Efficiency value. Which I guess must be fairly accurate, based on my guess for your engine being almost dead on with C&S's actual recommendation haha

So anyway kind of a big development on my end, up until now I was planning on building my own blow thru carb, pieced together with all the hotrodded little tricks I could find to help improve driveability. But once I started looking at cost of the parts alone (would end up easily near $800), and the cost of having a carb built by one of the top shops like Goon, I think I've decided to just make the jump straight to me end goal and shoot for fully sequential, blown efi.

The blow thru carb from C&S or CSU is still a great option, and I've heard the driveability is pretty awesome with them, but for me the blow thru was just going to hold me over until fuel injection, but if I'm spending that much money I feel like it should be towards the end goal. That being said, the full sequential route I'm going with Megasquirt will still take me a while to save up and piece together, and is apparently VERY user-intesive. It's not at all an off-the-shelf bolt on and go kit, and at this point the tuning aspect is fairly intimidating with my complete lack of experience lol.

But luckily the support community is huge, with its own forum, youtube videos, etc. and I've been lucky enough to connect with a couple of guys on here getting their feet wet with the system in N/A, as well as Redmist over on Dodgecharger.com that already has the system running really well on his 440 and is about to add a procharger into the equation. So I've already been digging into the research for about the past year or so, but I'm hoping with all this support I can soak up enough info to really make a go of this. Here's a teaser of Redmist's engine bay set up for N/A



As far as setting up the entire system, I'll pretty much be following his trail completely, as laid out in his thread over on DC:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=99432.0

It's been awesome jumping into this with Goon and having someone facing the same process/decisions with the Procharger, so now we'll just have both sides of the blow-thru/efi applications here on the thread. Off into the wild blue yonder, gentleman!

 

[HYRDGOON]

Question for anyone in the know... I know the more precise ignition timing the better and C&S sells they're MSD 6AL box matched to their carb and locked in but does the importance/impact of this aspect vary on how much boost I will be running... i.e. I was told with only 8lbs that my stock ignition should be fine?

Sorry 2 questions... would I sacrifice much in the way of low end by dropping my compression from 10:1 to 8:1 and upping the boost from 8 to 10-12ish? (or at 8:1 would I aim higher?) Trying to get the numbers game to get the most for my $$

 

[Hemirunner]

Question for anyone in the know... I know the more precise ignition timing the better and C&S sells they're MSD 6AL box matched to their carb and locked in but does the importance/impact of this aspect vary on how much boost I will be running... i.e. I was told with only 8lbs that my stock ignition should be fine?

Sorry 2 questions... would I sacrifice much in the way of low end by dropping my compression from 10:1 to 8:1 and upping the boost from 8 to 10-12ish? (or at 8:1 would I aim higher?) Trying to get the numbers game to get the most for my $$

Running a stock chrysler or MP ignition on a boosted motor would be asking for trouble. These ignitions (even the junk MP unit) is marginal at best for a high HP NA engine. You'd want to move to an MSD. 8:1 CR is too low in my opinion but it all depends upon what the rest of the combo is and what fuel you're trying to run, etc. 10-12 is not a lot of boost and if you do any reading, you'll find that boost in the form of pressure is more the reflection of restriction than a reference to any actual power capacity. We run 30 psi on that F2 SBF and that's with a 427 cube combo with great heads and a very sizeable cam and 9.8:1 CR. With larger heads and a ported intake, we could make more HP at a lower boost pressure which would be an improvement. Rather than try to build a combo around a certain blower, or a certain boost pressure, maybe look at what you want to achieve and work the combo from there? You could run 8psi, a stock ignition, 8:1 CR and put that blower on it, but I don't see it all working very well together. Better heads, a little more cam, MSD ignition, 9.5:1, and 5psi might run circles around it.

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Stock ignition will be fine man, if anything just run a boost retard box. Supposedly general rule of thumb is 1* of timing per lb of boost

 

[HYRDGOON]

Running a stock chrysler or MP ignition on a boosted motor would be asking for trouble. These ignitions (even the junk MP unit) is marginal at best for a high HP NA engine. You'd want to move to an MSD. 8:1 CR is too low in my opinion but it all depends upon what the rest of the combo is and what fuel you're trying to run, etc. 10-12 is not a lot of boost and if you do any reading, you'll find that boost in the form of pressure is more the reflection of restriction than a reference to any actual power capacity. We run 30 psi on that F2 SBF and that's with a 427 cube combo with great heads and a very sizeable cam and 9.8:1 CR. With larger heads and a ported intake, we could make more HP at a lower boost pressure which would be an improvement. Rather than try to build a combo around a certain blower, or a certain boost pressure, maybe look at what you want to achieve and work the combo from there? You could run 8psi, a stock ignition, 8:1 CR and put that blower on it, but I don't see it all working very well together. Better heads, a little more cam, MSD ignition, 9.5:1, and 5psi might run circles around it.

Thanks Hemirunner, Good info! The blower will be going on a 522 CME Crate that is 10:1 with the MSD "ready-to-run" ignition and aluminum (stealth) heads. Cam is 540 Lift 286/236 Duration Ground to 112 LSA but installed at 108 (assuming I would be best to remove and install straight up). I'll be running an air to air

I'd just as soon not take compression out of it and leave as much as is while getting as much boost as I can without a detonation concern. SOOO Much info out there it's hard to get answers as everyone's opinions seem to vary.

I'm talking with C&S and they want to sell me they're ignition... so I'm also trying to figure out if that's necessary

given that info would I be ok at 10-12 psi or even a little more?

 

[Hemirunner]

Stock ignition will be fine man, if anything just run a boost retard box. Supposedly general rule of thumb is 1* of timing per lb of boost

It'll be fine until it isn't then you'll switch it. So if I start with 50 degrees of timing and I pull 1 degree per lb of boost I'm good to go, huh? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you have to stop with generalities, especially when using a power adder. Same goes for nitrous. There are no "general rules" that cover all bases. You have to look at it as an entire combination and then examine how it's all going to work together.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks Hemirunner, Good info! The blower will be going on a 522 CME Crate that is 10:1 with the MSD "ready-to-run" ignition and aluminum (stealth) heads. Cam is 540 Lift 286/236 Duration Ground to 112 LSA but installed at 108 (assuming I would be best to remove and install straight up). I'll be running an air to air

I'd just as soon not take compression out of it and leave as much as is while getting as much boost as I can without a detonation concern. SOOO Much info out there it's hard to get answers as everyone's opinions seem to vary.

I'm talking with C&S and they want to sell me they're ignition... so I'm also trying to figure out if that's necessary

given that info would I be ok at 10-12 psi or even a little more?

Blow through will be much more forgiving due the added cooling of fuel atomization that happens when using a carb versus EFI where this doesn't really have time to take place. Talk to Roger, he really knows these things. That MSD rtr just doesn't have the spark energy that a 6AL or a digital 6 or 7 has. It'll work, but isn't real friendly when trying to program a boost curve or use a BTM. I like the programmable ignitions, but you really don't need one. A 6AL will do it all. With 10:1, you'll need all the timing flexibilty you can get, especially if you run the pump crap gas.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep in mind that spark energy effects fuel mixture and weak spark will fatten one up. Too weak and it'll detonate. If you're spending good money on a short block and heads, why be a cheap *** and short cut the other stuff that counts? I wouldn't want to ruin a good stroker just because I chose to save a few bucks on ignition.

 

[HYRDGOON]

It'll be fine until it isn't then you'll switch it. So if I start with 50 degrees of timing and I pull 1 degree per lb of boost I'm good to go, huh? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you have to stop with generalities, especially when using a power adder. Same goes for nitrous. There are no "general rules" that cover all bases. You have to look at it as an entire combination and then examine how it's all going to work together.

- - - Updated - - -



Blow through will be much more forgiving due the added cooling of fuel atomization that happens when using a carb versus EFI where this doesn't really have time to take place. Talk to Roger, he really knows these things. That MSD rtr just doesn't have the spark energy that a 6AL or a digital 6 or 7 has. It'll work, but isn't real friendly when trying to program a boost curve or use a BTM. I like the programmable ignitions, but you really don't need one. A 6AL will do it all. With 10:1, you'll need all the timing flexibilty you can get, especially if you run the pump crap gas.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep in mind that spark energy effects fuel mixture and weak spark will fatten one up. Too weak and it'll detonate. If you're spending good money on a short block and heads, why be a cheap *** and short cut the other stuff that counts? I wouldn't want to ruin a good stroker just because I chose to save a few bucks on ignition.

Thanks Hemirunner, You're answer is just what I'm looking for. And I'm definitely not interested in cheaping out I just wasn't sure what upgrades would be necessary for my application. Chase(I believe?) at C&S has discussed my scenario with Roger and put together a package they think I should run. I'd rather take time and save my pennies to do it right.

On a high note just did some poking around and I think there's a bit more room than I anticipated on to make this work without any big changes like moving my rad and fan package in front of the cradle.

This will take some time but will be done right.

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Well I stand corrected and I definitely shouldnt have said "stock" ignition, I assumed goon already had aftermarket electronic ignition of some kind but my bad. And re: the 1* of timing pulled per lb of boost is just what I read on the turbo forums the maximum boost book regarding low boost applications, I admit I have no experience to speak on there, hence "supposedly"

 

[HYRDGOON]

I shouldn't have said "stock" ignition either with my MSD R-T-R my bad. My basis from the question was from the guys at C&S recommending the 6AL which I do understand the rationale for now and it's staying on my shopping list. (It's only money! hahaha)

"Rather than try to build a combo around a certain blower, or a certain boost pressure, maybe look at what you want to achieve and work the combo from there?"

I feel like I'm missing a point here by looking for an optimal boost # to aim for that will work with the rest of the package I'm putting together, appreciate the convo going here I'm learning!

 

[inri]

Hydro,

What's the reason for the potential Procharger?
If your car 522 makes around 500 hp now you'll probably pull low 12's high 11's with traction. That's pretty solid for a street car.

 

[cdr]

as per Wallace racing

Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3900 pounds and HP of 500 is 11.55 seconds and MPH of 116.99 MPH.

 

[HYRDGOON]

Hydro,

What's the reason for the potential Procharger?
If your car 522 makes around 500 hp now you'll probably pull low 12's high 11's with traction. That's pretty solid for a street car.

That's a good and fair question Inri, And I'll start by saying I had the opportunity to pick up the Procharger in the offseason and when I was able to get my car out to stretch it's legs and was reminded how hard 500 cubes can pull I kinda said to myself "what the F was I thinking buying a Procharger!!"

When I was making a decision for the crate the other way I wanted to go was finding a block and having a Procharged motor built. Looking at the cost of full kits new I settled on getting the Crate and really am extremely happy with it. I guess the "Why?" answer now is "because I can" lol. I was able to get a reasonable deal on a good head unit, pulleys and brackets and now through time I can piece the rest of the system together and enjoy my Stroker N/A while I scavenge parts.

And if the Ego can weigh in I also admittedly have a chip on my shoulder about guys with new Challengers acting as if they're part of the Muscle Car scene and I'd love to erk out a bit more power than a new Hellcat just to say I have it. (Childish but we all have our things I guess)

as per Wallace racing

Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3900 pounds and HP of 500 is 11.55 seconds and MPH of 116.99 MPH.

Thanks CDR that's really cool and provided I could hook up it's about where a few of us figured I would end up last year after driving to Moparfest with 2 other 500cube B Bodies that have both made passes (BeeZee on here and his buddy Frank)

Curious is that calculation based off of Crank numbers or RWH? At the crank I dyno'd 530hp and 660 Torque. Averaged 625 torque through the curve. It's STOUT!!

 

[Dreadl0ck]

Howdy y'all

Hydrogoon said you had a Procharger discussion going on here, and since we don't have a dedicated forum for Protouring I've been keeping my ideas a bit to myself so the purists don't burn any crosses on my lawn or anything.

This will be a pretty long post so bare with me - just wanted to set the stage for what I'm building.

The engine
The engine is a 440 stroked .030" with hydraulic lifters and a 850 double pumper on it. Everything else about it is uncharted territory. Engine dynoed to 475 and runs smooth and pulls hard. The guy I bought it from has the build chart somewhere but I haven't been successful getting hold of them yet.

The plan
Since I know nothing about the engine I'm guessing it has pretty high CR which I don't want to boost too much, the plan is to run E85 which is widely available here in Socialist State of Sweden. Even though I hate the fuel and the governments way of enforcing it on us - it does come with some good characteristics. I used to run a Dodge Magnum SRT8 with a D1 blower on it using E85 with really good results. I like the configurability of modern cars - so I quickly decided to go all in and go EFI and FI. Then I realized that I'm not filthy rich and decided to do EFI this season and FI the next. E85 fits that route pretty good as well since car will run fine without the blower, and it will be a pretty easy task to tune it for the blower once I get that. I'm still kicking myself for selling the D1.

The parts
I want a high ram intake, and I want a forward facing throttle body. That leaves me only with Edelbrock ProFlo XT bundled with a generic 95mm TB. However I'm having some concerns when it comes to the Edelbrock ECU why I've started to investigate options. Right now I have Holley and XFI Sportsman on my shortlist - both of them (at least after this summers software upgrade for Holley) can handle a GM Flexifuel cell which is important to me. I don't want to end up towing the car or sitting at the gas station tuning it because I ended up at the one place that didn't have E85. So Edelbrock + Holley = Unique combination. I'm such a pioneer lol.

Fuel side must be upped from my initial ideas - running boosted E85 requires a lot of fuel. My choice will be injectors from Injector Dynamics in the 1200cc range. Pump from Aeromotive with AN12 feed and AN10 return. Regulator from Aeromotive as well

I'm still looking at getting another D1 unit and this is the part where I haven't got that far in my research. It will definitely be an intercooler and I think there's room.

So, that's my story right now - I'm happy to chime in wherever I can and I'll bookmark this post. Hope that you guys can answer some of my questions too when I get that far. I have a front suspension to build too