Procharged 440?

[cdr]

hey GOON that is flywheel #'s

here is the link to wallace http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

 

[HYRDGOON]

Howdy y'all

Hydrogoon said you had a Procharger discussion going on here, and since we don't have a dedicated forum for Protouring I've been keeping my ideas a bit to myself so the purists don't burn any crosses on my lawn or anything.

This will be a pretty long post so bare with me - just wanted to set the stage for what I'm building.

The engine
The engine is a 440 stroked .030" with hydraulic lifters and a 850 double pumper on it. Everything else about it is uncharted territory. Engine dynoed to 475 and runs smooth and pulls hard. The guy I bought it from has the build chart somewhere but I haven't been successful getting hold of them yet.

The plan
Since I know nothing about the engine I'm guessing it has pretty high CR which I don't want to boost too much, the plan is to run E85 which is widely available here in Socialist State of Sweden. Even though I hate the fuel and the governments way of enforcing it on us - it does come with some good characteristics. I used to run a Dodge Magnum SRT8 with a D1 blower on it using E85 with really good results. I like the configurability of modern cars - so I quickly decided to go all in and go EFI and FI. Then I realized that I'm not filthy rich and decided to do EFI this season and FI the next. E85 fits that route pretty good as well since car will run fine without the blower, and it will be a pretty easy task to tune it for the blower once I get that. I'm still kicking myself for selling the D1.

The parts
I want a high ram intake, and I want a forward facing throttle body. That leaves me only with Edelbrock ProFlo XT bundled with a generic 95mm TB. However I'm having some concerns when it comes to the Edelbrock ECU why I've started to investigate options. Right now I have Holley and XFI Sportsman on my shortlist - both of them (at least after this summers software upgrade for Holley) can handle a GM Flexifuel cell which is important to me. I don't want to end up towing the car or sitting at the gas station tuning it because I ended up at the one place that didn't have E85. So Edelbrock + Holley = Unique combination. I'm such a pioneer lol.

Fuel side must be upped from my initial ideas - running boosted E85 requires a lot of fuel. My choice will be injectors from Injector Dynamics in the 1200cc range. Pump from Aeromotive with AN12 feed and AN10 return. Regulator from Aeromotive as well

I'm still looking at getting another D1 unit and this is the part where I haven't got that far in my research. It will definitely be an intercooler and I think there's room.

So, that's my story right now - I'm happy to chime in wherever I can and I'll bookmark this post. Hope that you guys can answer some of my questions too when I get that far. I have a front suspension to build too

Can you tell us more on the specs in the Magnum? Intercooled? How much boost? What other components did you use?

hey GOON that is flywheel #'s

here is the link to wallace http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

Thanks! 11.5 is what we guessed it was capable of so I'll do my best to see if I can make that happen this summer!

 

[Dreadl0ck]

This is the magnum setup:





It was intercooled with the V shaped intercooler from the HO setup since I live in Sweden and it never gets warm here enough to justify the Stage 2 IC.

Fuel rails from Speedlogix, injectors from Injector Dynamics and fuel pump from Arrington. Super Raging Trojan from Inertia Motorsports, stroker kit from Arrington and a 100 shot from Nitrous Outlet. Intake ported and heads ported and matched by local genius who has some head flow world record.

When everything was assembled running E85 on a 10.2:1 compression ratio I reached 16 psi before I snapped a rear shaft. Never recovered from that and replaced the shaft with a stock mopar one, went back to regular gas tune and replaced the Procharger pulley for 10 psi boost before I sold the car and bought the roadrunner.

Lessons learned from the Magnum: Belt slip is an actual problem - no matter how tight you make it. On the 440 I will have a dedicated belt. The FMIC that goes over the radiator under the cross beam is oval so this is one of the options I look at for the 440 if it fits. I have made a cardboard mockup of it and will test it once I get that far in my planning. Filter position is not optimal but works better than one might first think when you look at it but for the love of God - buy helical gears if you plan to drive anywhere longer than 30 minutes. It sounded really cool for the first two or three weeks - then you get tired of the blower sounding like it chews gravel lol.

Further lesson learned: Innovate has great products but as all wideband Lambda sensors - they require really good ground. Shitty ground makes the car a PITA to tune. When you go EFI or boost an already fuel injected engine - go big on the injectors and make sure you pick a set which scale good so you have room "to grow". I had to replace my injector dynamic ones when I picked up more boost.

Probably old news to all you experts here, but this was one of only four supercharged SRT8 cars in Sweden so I was deep in uncharted territory lol.

 

[HYRDGOON]

Looks like a really good car and some helpful info Dreadlock! That Magnum must have been a ROCKET!!

I've read about the belt slip issues like everything says to run serp you need a REALLY good tensioner. I have one off a Fox Body mustang I'm going to try and make work but worse case I may have to deal with the Supercharger Store and just get their setup for 440.

As far as EFI goes I'll be sticking with BT Carb but I know Speedy has already dug in to making his full sequential EFI happen in true Frankenstein fashion!

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Your car is bad@ss dreadlock! And the magnum, too. And yeah I'm just now diving into the efi project, here's a basic outline of what I have planned for my entire setup

- .030 over 440, balanced forged bottom end. Unsure of compression but a couple friends more knowledgeable than myself are thinking it's somewhere between 9 and 10.0:1, so that will have to be figured out before I get to the procharger. But I'll most likely be going with a set of Eddy performer rpm heads with flatout spacer gaskets if necessary.

- Still unsure on cam, might go with a custom ground engle, but I did have an interesting conversation with meep-meep while he was up here last weekend about the Mopar 528 purple cam I noticed had a 112 lsa. So I think that may be an option as well

- Procharger P1sc, 8 psi, front mount intercooler (lucky Chargers have acres of real estate between the core support and grille assembly), 12 rib pulleys if I have room, 6 rib if not. fabricating my own driver's side mounting brackets, probably with help from some cardboard templates from Goon

- Dedicated blower pulley piggybacked off the front of the factory crank pulley, hopefully retaining power steering with a remote-reservoir mini pump. No A/C except speed and vent windows lol

EFI:
- Megasquirt ms3x ecu
- Edelbrock pro-flo intake and fuel rails
- Ebay 92 mm throttle body
- oem 55 lb/hr Shelby GT500 injectors with injector dynamics extension hats
- IAC, TPS, IAT, MAT sensors all standard chevy LS equipment
- Corvette zr1 3 bar map sensor along with the ms3's 2.5 map for altitude correction
- '01-04 Jeep straight 6 Cam Synchronizer sitting in a bushing I'll machine myself
- Ford EDIS-4 style 36-1 trigger wheel and crank position sensor, trigger wheel modified and welded to the back of the factory crank pulley, fabricated bracket for the sensor
- Chevy D585 "truck" coils
- Obviously o2 sensors on the header collectors
- Custom fabricating my own carbon fiber instrument cluster with Speedhut gauges, to make room for adding boost and A/F
- Aeromotive 13301 regulator
- Aeromotive Phantom 340 in-tank pump in modified factory charger tank
- 3/8 sending and return lines
- various AN fittings and everything I'll need to plumb and wire this whole shebang haha

 

[Dreadl0ck]

Speedy, sounds like a good setup. I've done MS on one car, and I don't want to steal your thunder here - but I will never ever consider doing it again. MS is like a college class in theoretical quantum mechanics - you learn as you go and the manual contradict itself on more than one occasion. That's why I've been checking XFI and Holley.

Rich over at fastmanefi sent over some really good information on E85 and boost with the XFI and there's a local mopar dragracer here in Sweden who's the general agent for Holley who talks very well of it. Guess it comes down to two things 1) The software you tune it with and 2) The $$$$. Remember that we have 25% VAT on everything and 12% customs fee and the Dollar is really strong nowadays compared to a few months back (for example, my roadrunner would be $7K more expensive today compared to in September just due to the exchange rate.

Speedy, the eBay throttle body you were talking about, you got any flow rate, price and specs on it? I found a local post for a Pro Flo XT 90mm which flows 1050 for less than $250 so I might pick that one up.

Have you calculated the injector sizes? 55lb/h is about 580cc. I know that they recommended going with 80 lb/h ford injectors to the 6.1 HEMI I had in my Magnum before I went lunatic with the boost ending up with ID.

Which pulley would be the best place to piggy back on? I can't find any good place to put a bigger tensioner either so running the blower with a cogged belt seems the best way to do it. My car don't have A/C nor power steering so it makes things a bit easier. Any advices there?

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Oh yeah not a problem Dreadlock, I've already encountered the heavy MS learning curve just with the internet research haha and I know it's extremely user-intensive. But it's all good with me, I've been having a lot of fun learning and luckily I have someone that's running nearly the exact same setup as me with excellent results and a willingness to help, as well as a friend of a friend here on the forum that's running it. And cost is also a major factor compared to the holley and fast offerings. I did look into terminator efi but it's limited to 650 hp if I remember right so that was off the table. goon said something about people having issues with xfi but I can't say for myself since I haven't really looked into it. That sucks about the exchange rate and all the fees though! What a PITA

The throttle body was only $110 which makes me a little nervous but I'll see what the quality looks like when it gets here and return it if it's no good. Looks to be the same one the guy over on DC.com used on his setup with no issues so we'll see! And being 92mm should flow about 1250 cfm. That'd be a good deal on the pro flo throttle body though!

Yep I dug around a few different forums looking at what kind of power 55/60 lb/hr injectors were supporting and what the duty cycles looked like at those levels, and also found a formula of: ( .55 x target horsepower ) / ( 1.15 x number of cylinders ). I gave 750 hp as a hair generous of where I think I'll be at, and it gave me just a touch under 45, so I can't say for sure how accurate that is but it seemed to back up what I was reading about 55/60's supported power levels without maxing duty cycle. Not sure what the difference would be between the requirements for e85 and the standard 91 octane here in oregon, but I just plan on running 8-10 psi and see where the power level ends up, my wallet isn't deep enough for more than that lol

As far as the pulley goes, definitely piggyback off the crank and the belt type I guess would depend on how far you want to push the procharger, and the driving conditions the car will see. Since I'm only running within the 8-10 psi, 1150 cfm my model was designed for, I would think I'd probably be ok with the 6 rib serpentine it came with. I'm going to figure out an electric fan setup and see if I have room for a 12 rib just to be on the safe side, but whether it's really necessary or not in my case is questionable. The cog belt seemed to be necessitated only in more of a higher boost situation, but Goon did some research that turned up some info that heavy stop-and-go street driving over time with a cog belt tended to fatigue and shear the shaft of the procharger. Hot Rod Magazine's procharger dyno test article said they started seeing slippage at 13 psi if I remember correctly, but they also admitted their installation had a slight pulley mis-alignment so I wouldn't necessarily go off that.

 

[HYRDGOON]

Here are the specs on my D1X for anyone interested:

Procharger D1X Specs:
Max CFM: 1900
Max Boost: 32psi
Max Impeller RPM: 58,000
Outlet ID: 2.62"
Outlet Hose Diameter: 3.00"
Impeller Exducer Dia: 6.6"
Inducer Diameter: 4"
Inlet Hose Diameter: 4.25"
Compressor Housing Diameter: 9.75"
Internal Step up: 4.44:1

My understanding is the D1X was the last D Series before stepping up to an F

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Here are the specs on my D1X for anyone interested:

Procharger D1X Specs:
Max CFM: 1900
Max Boost: 32psi
Max Impeller RPM: 58,000
Outlet ID: 2.62"
Outlet Hose Diameter: 3.00"
Impeller Exducer Dia: 6.6"
Inducer Diameter: 4"
Inlet Hose Diameter: 4.25"
Compressor Housing Diameter: 9.75"
Internal Step up: 4.44:1

My understanding is the D1X was the last D Series before stepping up to an F

Yup you got the mini-monster haha and I thought my P1SC looked huge when I first saw it lol!

 

[HYRDGOON]

Sorry,

I'll post pics here of what I was talking about with the brackets in my PM. Pic 1 is the brackets and Pic 2 has the tensioner that I'm hoping to steal the setup from to make work.

So what I'm thinking is another complete set with tensioner or like you're doing copying from Supercharger Store setup... either way I guess end up with one set of brackets dedicated to Cog and the Other dedicated to Serp.... make sense?



- - - Updated - - -

Here's a pic of mine going together with the spacers

 

[Budnicks]

Interesting read,
I'll watch some too

 

[Dreadl0ck]

On the brackets note - you guys don't happen to have any CNC drawings do you ;)

 

[HYRDGOON]

On the brackets note - you guys don't happen to have any CNC drawings do you ;)

Unfortunately not. Mine came with my unit second hand

 

[Average Joe]

Your car is bad@ss dreadlock! And the magnum, too. And yeah I'm just now diving into the efi project, here's a basic outline of what I have planned for my entire setup

- .030 over 440, balanced forged bottom end. Unsure of compression but a couple friends more knowledgeable than myself are thinking it's somewhere between 9 and 10.0:1, so that will have to be figured out before I get to the procharger. But I'll most likely be going with a set of Eddy performer rpm heads with flatout spacer gaskets if necessary.

- Still unsure on cam, might go with a custom ground engle, but I did have an interesting conversation with meep-meep while he was up here last weekend about the Mopar 528 purple cam I noticed had a 112 lsa. So I think that may be an option as well

- Procharger P1sc, 8 psi, front mount intercooler (lucky Chargers have acres of real estate between the core support and grille assembly), 12 rib pulleys if I have room, 6 rib if not. fabricating my own driver's side mounting brackets, probably with help from some cardboard templates from Goon

- Dedicated blower pulley piggybacked off the front of the factory crank pulley, hopefully retaining power steering with a remote-reservoir mini pump. No A/C except speed and vent windows lol

EFI:
- Megasquirt ms3x ecu
- Edelbrock pro-flo intake and fuel rails
- Ebay 92 mm throttle body
- oem 55 lb/hr Shelby GT500 injectors with injector dynamics extension hats
- IAC, TPS, IAT, MAT sensors all standard chevy LS equipment
- Corvette zr1 3 bar map sensor along with the ms3's 2.5 map for altitude correction
- '01-04 Jeep straight 6 Cam Synchronizer sitting in a bushing I'll machine myself
- Ford EDIS-4 style 36-1 trigger wheel and crank position sensor, trigger wheel modified and welded to the back of the factory crank pulley, fabricated bracket for the sensor
- Chevy D585 "truck" coils
- Obviously o2 sensors on the header collectors
- Custom fabricating my own carbon fiber instrument cluster with Speedhut gauges, to make room for adding boost and A/F
- Aeromotive 13301 regulator
- Aeromotive Phantom 340 in-tank pump in modified factory charger tank
- 3/8 sending and return lines
- various AN fittings and everything I'll need to plumb and wire this whole shebang haha

Here is a pic of my brackets on the Hemi They are the same as the 440.They are Big Chevy brackets modified to fit Big Chrysler from The Supercharger Store.I have an 8 rib belt and had to move my fans around for the belt not to hit.I had 12 rib pulleys and ran out of room. Barely fits with 8 rib.But the Hemi requires a 3/8 spacer on the water pump to get the procharger past the valve covers.
You might want to consider water/methanal injection instead of an intercooler or you can do both.
I run about 9.5to1 compression with water/meth
I make 841 HP and 839 TQ to the wheels at 6000 ft of altitude. About 1050 HP at the crank. Here is my cam card for you to compare when you are
designing your cam.Hughes engine will grind you a custom cam.Comp cams make there camshafts for them.

View attachment 253428View attachment 253429View attachment 253432View attachment 253433

- - - Updated - - -

 

[HYRDGOON]

Thanks Joe,

I'm likely to first just use my cam turned straight up (it's ground to 112 LSA but installed at 108) but I'll definitely keep that card handy and maybe go that route by the time I get there.

It's hard to not consider your cam looking at the numbers your engine makes (although I know that's just a fraction of the equation) I have not ruled water/meth out and will consider running it along with an IC but I think if the room is there (which it seems to be) I'd like to have an IC.

I do have a question for you... Do you know the difference or benefit in a return style fuel system vs. a boost reference regulator?? C&S explained only a bypass is required but didn't elaborate. (C&S recommends the fuel log and bypass so that is the direction I'm going which I'm certain you did too?)

Here's my current shopping list before boost is a regular part of my life lol

C&S blowthru aerosol 933 CFM carburetor

flow bench time by C&S

MSD 6AL 2P

Extreme Velocity hat

The fuel log and bypass

fuel pump 12-890

Holley Street Dominator Intake HLY-300-14

Electric Water Pump (Moroso?? Suggestions?)

Purchase cores for IC and fabrication costs (made to fit)

Possibly water/meth injection


Yup that's still a lot to go!!

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

Good info and bad@ss setup Joe!! Thanks for the tip on the 8 rib too, I'm sure that will be more than fine for my application so I'll just go with that. Why do you think meth rather than an intercooler? I still might add it but everyone I've talked to so far said that an intercooler would be plenty for 8 psi

And Mike I'm a little confused because a return style fuel system would be using a regulator to return the fuel, not sure why they'd say it doesn't need one. For blow-thru it seems like most everyone uses Aeromotive 13202 boost referenced regulator. Important in a blow thru setup because your fuel pressure needs to rise in a 1:1 ratio to boost pressure

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/aei-13202?seid=srese1&gclid=CJ3f-b3Qh8UCFQaTfgoduawATw

And as far as your brackets go, in your last pic I see where you have the tensioner post set up, on my brackets I just have a small idler pulley there, not a swing arm style like your mustang one or Joe's. Probably a dumb question but is that not enough to keep tension? I'm guessing that post in your last picture is where you were wanting the mustang tensioner adapted to?

- - - Updated - - -

And why the move to electric water pump? I would think you'd want mechanical reliability if you'll be doing any long trips and a lot of street driving

 

[HYRDGOON]

I have the same confusion Jake hence my question?? I was under the impression a return style reference regulator for boost would be necessary.

I was able to get this from the FAQ on C&S website but was hoping for more info:

Regulators work by restricting fuel flow to the carburetor this can sometimes cause the fuel bowl to empty due to the restriction the regulator places on the fuel delivery system. Fuel delivery system output can be increased by using a two pressure return style fuel system (Part number 4510, 4507 or 4509) with your existing pump.

If we aren't able to get more of an answer maybe I'll send Chase or Roger another email and ask them to elaborate.

You're guessing right essentially I'd like my mustang tenstioner incorporated into the brackets pictured to look like Joe's... figured you could use mine to do the exact same for yourself? If that doesn't really benefit you don't worry about it though as I'll just worry about mine when I get to that point. As you can see from the shopping list I'm a few dollars away from finished!!

As far as the electric water pump goes my main consideration was to make room... valid point though on the mechanical reliability and something I will have to further consider.

 

[Mr.SpeedFreak]

I don't know man, I could be wrong but pretty much everyone running blow thru on the turbo forum is using an aeromotive regulator. With that many people successfully running them and the power numbers they're making, I can't see how it'd be a problem.

Oh ok cool now we're on the same page hahaha but here's my noob question of the day, how's that tensioner work/ how is it an improvement on the regular fixed idler pulley like came on my setup? If it'd be a necessity/improvement and not too expensive to pick one up, I'd definitely be down to figure out how to make it work!

Yeah man I'd rather have a mechanical on a street car myself, and I'm not sure how much space it'd necessarily get you. If slippage isn't an issue for Joe making those numbers on an 8 rib, it should be fine for us lol. Pulley alignment is probably going to be the main thing to keep an eye on

 

[HYRDGOON]

I sent the question about the boost reference regulator to C&S. I'll update with whatever reply they give me.


Here is the reply from C&S;

The term "regulator means the system is a dead head system and "regulates" the pressure low enough that it wont push past the needle and seats....

A bypass allows fuel to return to the tank and restricting or closing the return line raises the pressure...like your finger and thumb squeezing the line shut....this is how we have a base pressure and a rising pressure as boost increases......as scen in the diagram.

The fuel goes round and round in a circle at 6.5 to 7 psi....As boost is applied to the top of the diaphragm the bypass closes restricting flow back to the tank and raising pressure inside the rail 1:1 with boost...so at 10 PSI we will have 17 psi of fuel pressure...

7 base plus 10 psi = 17...etc...at 20 psi we should see 27 psi of fuel pressure etc.
So i guess in a matter of speaking a bypass does regulate fuel pressure....so it is a type of regulator...

 

[Average Joe]

You can run more compression with water/meth and your adding another fuel.With water/meth its like running 110 octane fuel in your car on pump gas.you can run an intercooler with it but that takes a lot of space.I run the snow performance boost juice. Its 49%methanal and 51% water.
I recommend the Aeromotive myself. whatever regulator you use make sure you run -10 return line. I screwed up and ran-8 return and had to put a bigger regulator to fix it.