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Procharged 440?

HYRDGOON said:
Curious has anyone ever seen the Supercharger store website NOT UNDER CONSTRUCTION? http://www.thesuperchargerstore.com/index.html
Click to expand...

Those guys kinda pissed me off anyway, I called a while back and spoke with one of the guys about brackets, and he kinda acted like they couldn't be bothered to sell "just" the $4-600 brackets rather than a full procharger kit. Ended up saying they could do it but was kinda vague on what the price could be and still kinda acted like it would be a bother. I've seen people say the main owner guy is a great guy to talk to, but this guy sold me on "screw it, I'll just make my own brackets" haha
 
Too bad about the Supercharger store.. I hear all this stuff about they are the only ones to go to if you have a Mopar blah blah blah...

Onto the important stuff! I'm trying to determine what pulley sizes I need. FOr the sake of keeping this easy let's just use cog/gilmer as the reference point. Is there any way to determine what size crank and blower pulleys to start with to coincide with my intended boost level?? I have this worksheet to use as a reference point if it helps??

I know that the The smaller the crank cog the slower procharger turns and the lower the boost

The smaller the procharger head cog the faster the procharger turns – more boost.

But what size do I start with or is it all trial and error?? I really don't want to have to buy 6 sets of pulleys.

Procharger Worksheet - Goon Specs.jpg
 
Do you have a commpressor map of the blower you are using? I see the cfm spec is 1900 at max rpm, (1200-1300hp) I guess that would be at a certain boost pressure level to get the best cfm out of it, I am assuming these blowers are similar to turbos in that it is not a linear relationship of cfm output to rpm, and the PR ratio affects the efficiency and cfm.

522 Cube stroker, with a solid roller and heads. Thats a big motor so It will take a lot of cfm just to fill your engine before you even get into boost. If you know your N/A hp, and max rpm you can estimate the cfm the engine will use at N/A, then times it by the Pressure ratio you want, and get an estimate of the total cfm you need, Then look at the compressor map and see what the blower rpm is at the cfm/PR you want. You won't get anywhere close to the 32psi max with that supercharger on that monster motor, Maybe 14'ish psi max?, and your PR may be so low you may not hit the efficiency island.

What is your intended boost level or HP you want to acheive?

If you can not find the compressor map, looking at builds with the same blower and similar N/A hp outputs could help you make a selection. I am sure there would be guys here that could make educated guesses from experience, or you could phone procharger perhaps? I personally have no experience boosting with a centrifugal.
 
Hey Mike, I believe 8" is the standard rib style crank pulley I have not seen a larger one and I wouldn't change that one. With your D1 you would need to run the 3.4 supercharger pulley to get the boost level up on your engine.3.4 is one of the smallest for your head unit and you will need to put a lot of tension on the belt so it doesn't slip.You will probably make around 10-12 psi of max boost due to the size of your engine maybe less. I run the 8" crank pulley and the 3.7 supercharger pulley on my f-1 and have 15 psi at max boost.I think with your set up having high compression even with less boost you will have good performance. I have a friend that has 7 psi at max boost with his corvette and makes 600 to the wheels.His car is almost as fast as mine then again his car weighs 800 pounds less than mine does too.LOL
 
Thanks Furry and Joe,

Furry I've attached my dyno sheet from an engine pull done N/A.

I'll definitely be calling the Procharger guys but everything you guys tell me help even more so I can communicate better when I talk to them. As far as goals go I don't have a boost goal in mind but would like to see 750-800 hp at the crank... Not sure how achievable that is based on what I'm working with?

View attachment 301763
 
If you obtain 10 psi of boost, that is a PR of 1.68. Your dyno sheet indicates you achieved 526HP @ 4900rpm, so 884 Hp, minus the hp to drive your blower, and other ineffieciency's. It seems like you could reach your goals. The smaller blower could put out a lot of heat and be less effiecient, something to be aware of, If I remember Joe had a lot of heat on his setup with a bigger blower as well. Joe's recomendation makes sense to me, especially if you limit your rpm on your stroker. Don't be shy with your water injection nozzle size on this one. Your building a monster! It already is one now!
 
Thanks Furry,

Joe has helped me out every step of the way so I'm not surprised his suggestion should be real close. Based on your numbers I'd feel pretty good about that if that's what delivers. I know the smaller blowers eat a little less horsepower too driving the blower.

I have an email in to Procharger tech support now I just had to dig out my serial # so I'll post an update here with whatever they reply.

Oh and I also plan on running an air to air as well as the water/meth and still not sure if I'm staying blowthru but if I do I know the atomization of the fuel through a carb also helps temps a lot too so here's hoping!
 
My combo should be about 650hp NA, and with 30psi the pressure ratio is 3.04 yielding 1976hp minus the inefficiencies of driving the turbos. I sure hope that's enough.
 
Hemirunner said:
My combo should be about 650hp NA, and with 30psi the pressure ratio is 3.04 yielding 1976hp minus the inefficiencies of driving the turbos. I sure hope that's enough.
Click to expand...

if THAT isn't enough then I'm not sure what is! Especially for a car you can DRIVE!
 
Like a lot of you Gents I cruz the various boards for info, have you checked out Yellowbullet? They have a supercharger section with 403pages of stuff. I don't care for the brash B.S. over there but it worth cruzing over and checking out.
 
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Phil McGrath said:
Like a lot of you Gents I cuz the various boards for info, have you checked out Yellowbullet? They have a supercharger section with 403pages of stuff. I don't care for the brash B.S. over there but it worth cruzing over and checking out.
Click to expand...

Thanks Phil, I do browse over there but have never joined. Wouldn't be a bad idea though for one to be able to ask questions and two, I might find more used parts; pulleys, belts brackets etc...

I know neither of these are gospel but here's a couple pieces I found useful while browsing. First is stright from Procharger website and the second is from a C&S Fuel Systems post:

"What type of fuel do I need with a supercharged automotive or truck engine? The primary issues that determine the type of fuel needed are whether the engine is fuel-injected or carbureted, the compression ratio of the engine, and whether or not the supercharger system is intercooled. For Intercooled ProCharger EFI/TPI applications with compression ratios less than 9.5:1, boost levels of 14-17 psi can be safely run with full timing on pump gas, and will produce horsepower gains of 75-100% (depending upon the boost level and the motor specifications). For 9.5:1 EFI/TPI applications running without an intercooler, boost levels above 5 psi will require the use of ignition/timing retard on pump gas, and will produce horsepower gains of 35-45%. Boost levels above 12 psi should generally be avoided even with racing fuel on a 9.5:1 motor. Of course, lower compression motors will be able to run more boost, and higher compression motors should run less boost, everything else being equal. All Intercooled ProCharger systems for street applications are designed to allow the use of pump gas with full timing and will not affect daily drivability. For carbureted motors, the rules are slightly different. Carburetors deliver the vast majority of fuel in a liquid state, and as this raw fuel atomizes from liquid to gas, a chemical state change actually occurs. Due to this endothermic reaction, which draws heat and cools the incoming air, a carbureted motor can safely handle more boost than a comparable EFI/TPI motor. For carbureted engines with compression ratios of 9:1 or less and boost levels in the 8-14 psi range, pump gasoline works very well. Compression ratios of 10:1 and higher require lower boost levels, higher octane fuel, intercooling, or some combination of the above. Compression ratios in the 7or 8:1 range can usually handle 12-20 psi on pump gasoline."


"
Methanol kits are to control intake charge temps
Intercoolers are to control intake charge temps.
Water to air intercoolers are to control intake charge temps

Blowthru Carbs do a very good job of controller intake charge temps with out any of that bologna "in many cases"

If your running less than 12 PSI and under 11:1 compression . You don't need an inter-cooler or a methanol kit.
Certainly not both!
even on pump gas"
 
So if I'm absorbing all of this correctly it seems that my high compression is actually more suitable to this setup because my smaller blower wouldn't be efficient enough to provide a lot (or enough) more boost for maximal gains if I took some compression out? Does that seem right? Is there anything you guys would change given what I'm working with? (aside from an F series)

Also my intention is to run both an IC and water meth. As it stands I still have everything to go blowthrough but have been back and forth about going efi about a million times in the last month... But again from reading what I have and temps being an issue with my compression it REALLY seems to make sense to stay blowthru?

Sorry if I'm rambling just echoing my own thoughts for some assurance! :)
 
You're on the right track. With your compression, an F series would be run so slow it wouldn't be doing anything but producing a ton of heat. The upside to blow through, especially with water meth, is the latent heat of vaporization lowering temps even more. Blow thru, IC and meth and you're good to go.
 
It's Shocking how much heat they produce Hemirunner.LOL. I agree, the higher compression does help.With air to air and water/meth your set up should yield good performance.If you make roughly 375hp 525tq to wheels now you should make 600+hp and700+tq with the supercharger system.That is very impressive for a budget conscience forced induction build.Mike,I was looking at your engine bay pics that you sent.You will need to get a check valve for your power brake booster. Also you won't be able to run the PCV valve anymore.I run an air pump now that relieves the crankcase pressure.Your battery will most likely have to move to the trunk.But it looks like you have plenty of room to put the intercooler in. I wish I lived closer to you.I could easily build you intercooler charge piping.
 
I see guys running vac pumps on these blower combos but I like dual catch cans with breathers. If you vent a piston that boost will overwhelm the vac pump instantly. I'm going twin turbo with a dry sump system. Turbos have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. I like having my cake and eating my cake at the same time! :hello2:

- - - Updated - - -

You still add the cans with checks and run the vac pump until the system goes from vacuum to pressure. This will keep the pan from looking like a basketball if something bad happens.
 
Thanks Joe,

I wish you lived closer too if anything just so you could take me out for a spin in your Charger! The guy doing the install has done a lot of this stuff so I'm not so worried about the charge pipes and that pic is a little older so there is a check valve on the brake booster now.

The PCV valve I wasn't aware of so I'll definitely have to look closer at that. I'm actually feeling pretty good now about where this all stands. My only skeleton right now is clearance so I'm definitely looking at a 6 pak hood and hoping that's enough (which don't get me wrong I prefer the look of and want one bad) But the hood really snowballs into other things.

Also I agree I should have plenty of room for the intercooler.. given the size of my blower should I need one as big as yours? I guess as far as an intercooler goes if it's not lowering boost slightly it's not doing it's job.
 
Mike, not sure how you guys are planning on routing the charge piping.A 4" intercooler would be the smallest that I would suggest.If you guys do the charge pipe similar to how I ran mine.I would recommend the same intercooler I have to make it easier(29x10x5).
 
Also,one of problems I found with the evacuation system with the many setups I tried was the smell.
The first set up I did was breathers piped into the back of the air cone.Worked but smell like gas in the car.The supercharger was venting the crankcase but blowing the gases out of the bypass valve and it was blowing oil out.
The second set up was similar.I piped out of the breathers through a oil catch can then the back of the air cone.Worked but same problem still smelled.
The third set up did't work at all. I tried to run crankcase through the headers. Only works if you don't have a full exhaust system. Solved the smell and oil blowing out bypass valve but didn't pull the pressure out and I blew the dipstick out running it at the track.Oil everywhere
The fourth set up. I bought a air pump and catch can from GZ motorsports.There design doesn't require having to rebuild the pump as often.Unfortunately with the supercharger belt,power steering and alternator there is no were to run the air pump belt.The air pump spins at a slower speed than the engine so that you aren't pulling vacuum out just the crankcase pressure as engine speed goes up.So you can't run the pump on the same groove as the alternator or power steering it need to be about a 4 1/2"drive pulley not a 7".So what I did was took the crank spacer off the engine and had groove machined in it for a belt.The supercharger spacer for the crack pulley is about 4 1/2" so the ratio worked out.Of course I had to make a bracket for the pump.Got it all plumbed and tested it at Bandimere at the Mopar mega show. Worked great but still smelled.
I know I am rambling on!LOL but I had a lot of trial and error so if I can share what worked and didn't work I am hoping it will be easier for you or anyone else doing a build like this.
Ok,finally the set up that has worked for me.The fifth set up, Same as the fourth but this time I cut the breather off the top of the catch can and welded a 1-1/4" 90 degree elbow on.From there I ran piping under the car and vented it out by the exhaust.SUCCESS! I can now drive the car and it doesn't stink anymore.
Hope this helps.
Thanks,Joe
 
Thanks Joe,

Not rambling at all! It's great to have your firsthand experience to learn from especially since there aren't too many people on here with this kind of power adder. I'll take it all under advisement and let you know what we plan on once we have a plan in place
 
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