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rebuilt 318 knock noise around 2500

Can you put it in gear and rev it to see if it changes at all? Is there a heat riser on there? Sound can travel and I have seen exhaust related problems cause a lot of scary noises (I am sure we all have). Maybe a loose inspection cover? Maybe oil dipstick making contact somewhere inside? Keep us posted. : )
 
@72RobCharger ... ok... I'm going crazy over here :)

In summary... just generalizing where we're at...

- timing is ok and no change if advanced or retarded (seems to "reduce" the pre-ignition concern)
- no change when pulling plug wires one at a time (seems to eliminate rod or piston problems - as well as pre-ignition, assuming it's a single cylinder)
- doesn't appear to be a fuel pump issue

Things I'm not sure were covered...
- Pulley interference (I doubt this a little more after watching the vid, but still a possibility)
- Has the flywheel/converter bolts been checked?
- I know I mentioned crank fore and aft movement before... have you gotten under the car and used a pry tool to see how far forward and rear the crank is moving?

General thoughts now...
- Bad / loose oil pump?
- bad distributor drive bushing (inside the block)? Doubtful.. but easy to check.
Doorkicker thank you for your continued support and insight to this debacle. Flywheel bolts should be in check. Back in 2020 I installed a rebuilt 4 speed, a lighter billet steel flywheel along with new clutch and pressure plate. Torqued everything to spec and used loctite. The noise existed even before i installed the new 4 speed/flywheel/clutch. I do need to get under car and check the crank movement still. I installed new fuel pump with no luck with noise. I don't recall any pulleys interfering with anything but its worth another look. As far as the oil pump... when the motor was originally rebuilt it was done by a shop. The second rebuild me and my friend noticed there was no oil pump gasket in the gasket kit i bought. Its Melling pump. I have most definitely seen the conflicting information/opinions about gasket or no gasket. Today over on the A body forum i found someone that said go see what the Melling engineers say Or SCHUMANNS. After the second rebuild I did notice with out a gasket that my oil pressure wasn't what it used to be. There is a nice copper gasket i plan to add. I actually called schumanns and talked to them to see what there 2 cents was. Last night I was investigating about the distributor drive gear. I would be surprised it the distributor drive gear was worn tho. The first rebuild was done in 2012 is why i say that. Then after i cracked that piston in 2015 we had to rebuild it and i just did my homework and my friend and I did it ourselves. The only thing we didn't do was check the block and rods. I have a suspicion that the number 2 piston/cylinder/rod is gonna be at fault. The machine shop that checked everything installed the new KB167 piston onto the rod for me. I don't really know how they could have messed that up but that may be the case. On keith blacks website it says that the KB167's are press fit OR floating wrist pin. I"ve had several people say they think it sounds like a wrist pin. I really hope my cylinder wall on number 2 is good. The machine shop said they checked the cylinder to make sure it was still true but they kept givng me the "call me tomorrow we are almost done" and this went on for months. So i won't be surprised if its not right. My friend and I plan to drop the oil pan ( I think i can do this with motor in car still ) and just check all the rods for slop and maybe even take the cap of #2 and see if all is well. I really don't want to remove the motor thats why i am being thorough hoping i can first to find something stupid simple staring me in the face. If it comes down to it tho, its not no big deal. We have a garage and lift and all the tools to get it out. It wouldn't take us a couple hours if that to pull the motor. I can almost count in my head how many bolts it is lol Anyway until i check in again here is a walk around video of the Charger Idling.

 
Can you put it in gear and rev it to see if it changes at all? Is there a heat riser on there? Sound can travel and I have seen exhaust related problems cause a lot of scary noises (I am sure we all have). Maybe a loose inspection cover? Maybe oil dipstick making contact somewhere inside? Keep us posted. : )
Hey thank you. Good things to check. Im drawing a blank with the heat riser... was that part of the exhaust manifolds? Im getting use to posting short reels on youtube so i'll be posting more videos. I borrowed a cool idea for an external hydrualic slave cylinder, that is in the charger. I'll be making a video of that. Saves the trouble of an internal one. Saw some mexican dudes on youtube do one. Pretty cool.
 
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Here is the KB167 piston that cracked. figured id better share these so you all get the full picture. Again the machine shop was supposed to checked the cylinder hole to make sure it wasn't egged out and still true. I really wonder if they messed up the installation of the wrist pin. A floating wrist pin would be quicker to make noise then a press in wouldn't it?

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Doorkicker thank you for your continued support and insight to this debacle. Flywheel bolts should be in check. Back in 2020 I installed a rebuilt 4 speed, a lighter billet steel flywheel along with new clutch and pressure plate. Torqued everything to spec and used loctite. The noise existed even before i installed the new 4 speed/flywheel/clutch. I do need to get under car and check the crank movement still. I installed new fuel pump with no luck with noise. I don't recall any pulleys interfering with anything but its worth another look. As far as the oil pump... when the motor was originally rebuilt it was done by a shop. The second rebuild me and my friend noticed there was no oil pump gasket in the gasket kit i bought. Its Melling pump. I have most definitely seen the conflicting information/opinions about gasket or no gasket. Today over on the A body forum i found someone that said go see what the Melling engineers say Or SCHUMANNS. After the second rebuild I did notice with out a gasket that my oil pressure wasn't what it used to be. There is a nice copper gasket i plan to add. I actually called schumanns and talked to them to see what there 2 cents was. Last night I was investigating about the distributor drive gear. I would be surprised it the distributor drive gear was worn tho. The first rebuild was done in 2012 is why i say that. Then after i cracked that piston in 2015 we had to rebuild it and i just did my homework and my friend and I did it ourselves. The only thing we didn't do was check the block and rods. I have a suspicion that the number 2 piston/cylinder/rod is gonna be at fault. The machine shop that checked everything installed the new KB167 piston onto the rod for me. I don't really know how they could have messed that up but that may be the case. On keith blacks website it says that the KB167's are press fit OR floating wrist pin. I"ve had several people say they think it sounds like a wrist pin. I really hope my cylinder wall on number 2 is good. The machine shop said they checked the cylinder to make sure it was still true but they kept givng me the "call me tomorrow we are almost done" and this went on for months. So i won't be surprised if its not right. My friend and I plan to drop the oil pan ( I think i can do this with motor in car still ) and just check all the rods for slop and maybe even take the cap of #2 and see if all is well. I really don't want to remove the motor thats why i am being thorough hoping i can first to find something stupid simple staring me in the face. If it comes down to it tho, its not no big deal. We have a garage and lift and all the tools to get it out. It wouldn't take us a couple hours if that to pull the motor. I can almost count in my head how many bolts it is lol Anyway until i check in again here is a walk around video of the Charger Idling.




Ok... cool... we can move away from the flywheel, fuel pump, pulleys, and drive gear/bushing.

- As for the oil pump. I'm all about the gasket because if there is a leak, well you won't know other than low oil psi. Nevertheless, if the internal and/or the outer rotors are worn badly or loose, especially the inner rotor's shaft's interface with the outer body of the pump where it goes through to engage with the halfshaft, you could get a knocking. It's interesting to note that the rate of knocking from the video seems about half the rpm. But that could just be mind tricks I'm playing on myself.

- I'm 99% certain you can get the oil pan off with the engine in the car. I do it all the time... BUT... admittedly, that's with a 440 in a B-Body. Nevertheless, do it and check the oil pump and rod ends as you suggested. My gut says it's not the rod ends only because it doesn't have that "Get me the F outta here... I'm going to punch a hole in the side of this block" sound. And you said it's been doing it for a while.

- I think there's a lot you can do before pulling the engine. Drop the pan... check everything. If you don't find anything, pull the heads. At least then you can inspect the cylinder walls, valves, and piston tops. Actually... don't pull the heads... you can get a $40 endoscope, pull the plugs and at least do a visual inspection.

- If after all this you think it's the wrist pin... you can pull the rod and piston out from the bottom. You'd need to pull the head as well, if for no other reason to reinstall them. However, that's not an insignificant knock, and it's been doing it for a while. The pistons, rods, and main... they don't just knock a little for a long time... it usually get's progressively worst... which you're not experiencing. Also, that doesn't explain why the knocking didn't go away or even change when pulling the plug wires one by one while running/revving.

- Admittedly, a wrist pin could knock... here are some ideas...

-- if it's a floating pin and they failed to install or install correctly the locking rings (which happens all the time), the pin is coming in contact with the cylinder wall. However, I do not believe this would be a consistent noise... I don't think it wouldn't be rhythmic or sound as thumpy.

-- if it's a press fit and they jacked up the heating process... they may have not centered the pin correctly. Meaning one of a couple things...
------the pin isn't centered and therefore will create sidewall pressure and eventually produce a piston slap.
------And/OR, they didn't do the heating right and then attempted to use a press to finish installing the pin (I've seen that too) and if you don't have things setup really, really well you can create interference with the piston and lock up the pin... this results in the pin locked into the rod (what you want), but also locked up in the piston (what you don't want). The pin over heats in the piston, wollers out the aluminum in the piston just enough to not over heat and creates a "stable" knock.

And one could argue the knock would persist even without spark because the piston is still moving up and down. But again... without spark there's significantly less pressure... and this is inconsistent with the knock not changing at all when you pulled the spark plug wire. Nevertheless, the compression stroke still creates pressure that could still create a knock.. but dang... there's a big difference there with no change in sound... no make sense.

I'd say pull the pan... and work your way up. You can fix this without removing the engine. I'm saying that knowing that in many cases pulling the engine is far, far easier... but I sense that may not be a great option for you.

One last thing... have you taken a long rod (wood dowel, long socket extension, etc) and put one end in your ear and the other end on different parts of the engine? If not, do that! It's super helpful. Just walk around putting the end on different places so you can hear/locate the knocking better.

And I failed to say it before, but I will now... your car looks great.
 
Here is the KB167 piston that cracked. figured id better share these so you all get the full picture. Again the machine shop was supposed to checked the cylinder hole to make sure it wasn't egged out and still true. I really wonder if they messed up the installation of the wrist pin. A floating wrist pin would be quicker to make noise then a press in wouldn't it?

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The floating pin is only easy to mess up because you fail to put the locking rings in or correctly. If so, the pin would slap the cylinder wall... but would that create a consistent knocking? and without spark? Dunno.

As for press fit... it's super easy to jack that up because it's easy to mess up the heating process and easy to mess up the step of inserting the pin while at the right temp. If you do it a lot, it goes super quick. But I've seen great shops hand that work to the NFG who get's it wrong.. not centered, bites in the piston, etc. The issue with pressing pins is it looks easy enough, but if you don't time it right... it's a sh1tshow and things start to go sideways quick.

BTW... that crack is pretty good... kind of surprised she didn't fly apart...
 
Sorry, I can't get good sound on my end, but. Have you checked to see if your fan is hitting anything when you rev ? Have you use a stethescope near each cyl to isolate, maybe an exhaust leak ?
 
This is light years ahead of a screwdriver or stick in the ear.

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I got my stethoscope kit it. I will be warming up the motor next chance i get and listening everywhere! When i figure out what this noise is i will besure to let you guys know! also in the mean time is my lil ol .060 over aluminum headed 318 !
 
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Ok everyone, first off PADAM thank you for the stethescope link. I used it today! I am getting this noise from drivers side of motor and it seems to be coming from cylinder 7. It literally almost sounds like a lifter not staying seated on the cam. I really doubt thats the case cuz hell you'd figure id flattened the lobe by now?... I took Valve cover off of that side and bumped ignition around and checked all the rocker arms. They all seem good, although there is this side to side movement on some of this. Would that cause this noise ive been chasing? If so it did it when i had stamped steel rockers also. When i had the previous rockers it made me wonder if they got out of order from the machine shop. I had them oriented correctly between intake and exhaust too. Here is a video of me wiggling some rockers for you so you can listen. And some photos of how close the rocker arms are to the springs. I'll have to try again on the photo. Need light behind the springs so see how close they are


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Get some gloves. Run engine at idle, with fingers resting on suspect rocker arm. Sound will change if there is a problem.
 
I been up late researching on everything that has came to mind. The most recent thing that i have been looking up is perhaps my lack of a Oil Pump gasket is causing my oil pressure to not be what it use to be and not providing enough pressure to keep my lifters pumped up at higher RPM. At least some of my lifters. It seems around cylinder #7 That is where the noise comes from. It would be interesting to know the path or direction of oil flow from the pump thru out the motor. I found an interesting theory in a Ram Forum about the oil pump and its gasket. THe theory was around a noise that only happens around 2500 rpm or floating the motor so to speak. Here is the QUOTE from the Forum

"My theory is that it's an oil pressure issue. Wear causes the oil pump seals to bleed, resulting in slightly lower oil pressure (when mine failed I was seeing ~17psi at idle). This causes the lifters to collapse under less load than they would otherwise (hydraulic lifters are held extended by oil pressure, lower pressure causes them to collapse under less force). Now take this engine that has weak lifters, and rev it quickly. The valvetrain load adds up more quickly than the oil pressure rises, resulting in a lifter that's being subjected to more force than it has oil to handle. The lifter partially collapses, causing it to break contact with the cam as soon as it passes the peak of the lobe. The lifter then rapidly fills since it's no longer under any load, and slams into the cam"

When i listen with the stethoscope, It really sounds like a lifter jumping off the peak of a Lobe. Now call me crazy but this correlates back to me noticing my oil pressure from the second engine build was not what is used to be from before. I actually installed a mechanical gauge to see what my car was making. Again about 20 psi at idle and it goes up when i cruise down the road of course. Maybe 40 psi at like 2200. I know the machine shop installed a Melling pump and i am going to call them and see if they use the gasket that comes with the pump. I really wouldn't see why not. I remember when i built the motor the second time that my friend and I noticed no oil pump gasket in the gasket kit. I remember researching it and finding mixed information on the matter. Still to this day you see mixed reviews of to use or not to use the gasket. My take on that is if its the factory oil pump and machined surfaces then probably no gasket is needed but if its an aftermarket pump then use the gasket. Well, we will be dropping the oil pan soon and will inspect all components visible from below if all checks out then we plan to install an Oil Pump gasket and reinstall oil pan. I also plan to take intake off, readjust valves and then reseal the intake. I've never had the best of luck with the ends of the intake sealing, we done end gaskets and also just rtv on the ends. Anyways i don't know who is still checking but again thanks for all your input and advice everyone. Wish me luck. thanks everyone!

So quick Add. I did a search and found the schematic for the path of oil travel. If I am seeing this right it seems the oils furthest point of travel would be back to cylinder number 7 on the drivers side of motor. That's where my noise is that really sounds like a lifter.

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Still not trying the simple method to isolate the noise.....
I will do that. I did watch the rockers with the valve cover off. Tho i do believe with my lack of oil pressure is causing a problem on the drivers side. While watching it run i didn't see the rocker going side to side. I will try the glove method tho! thank you geoff
 
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Still not trying the simple method to isolate the noise.....
Held every rocker arm and revved it. I don't think that side to side play is making any noise. Every small block online that i've seen makes 35 to 40 lbs of oil psi. I adjusted my lifters some more today and i swear the noise moved up in the rpm range. I really hope that after dropping oil pan and checking everything underneath that if all checks out well that i oil pump gasket i have will make a difference.. The motor did get a lot quieter at idle. Less valvetrain noise. If i wind up having to get a new cam and lifters... well, i can't say that my feelings will be hurt at all. Id love to try out a difference cam.
 
well, i am still vigilant about this noise. I just remembered a couple weeks ago that back in 2020 when i was installing my aluminum heads that on base circle of a cam lobe it looked liked a lifter had been hopping around the lobe a bit. It had a strange pattern that wasn't a solid path all the way around. And it was back there around Cylinder number 7. Me and my friend have plans to pull the motor and go thru it. Since i have it a part i am going to refresh it. I bought all new gaskets and also a new cam and lifters! I selected the Lunati Voodoo 268/276 494/513. I am hoping this is just a cam problem. My friend and I have determined that pulling the motor will be nothing. We recently did a motor install for a 2010 f150 with the 5.0 coyote motor. Talk about a pain. Fought us the whole way. After that, a motor pull from my car will be a breath of fresh air lol. I will post back when we get it out and start investigating. Here is a quick thought tho... What if my main bearings are just a touch loose? I found a video where someone shared what main bearings sound like when they are going out or too big and the sound was awful similar to my noise. Tho my engine noise sounds like it is coming from the top end.
 
Do you have banana grooved rocker shafts
 
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