Smogger 440 build (piston height)

[Cranky]

Thats a good idea! Just use longer rods. What are the max positive deck heights you could put in a 440? I noticed the most you can get with a stock type flat head is .010 in the hole. But didn't the 440 6-pak have a positive deck height? And are those pistons available with the taller compression height? Thanks

440 6 pack pistons were around .020 in the holea

I dont want to clutter under the hood of my 66 with turbo setup, tho for power that is the way to go, hands down. My lil 331 sbf single turbo drag car was an animal.

Anyway I am picking up another 440 tomorrow, a 1970 because it is stupid cheap. Im gonna pull the 906s off of it and see what kind of shape the bore is in. If the bore is shot to **** then I will stick one piston and rod out of the 1970 motor into the 1977 motor and mock it up to check deck height to piston height and see what I have.

Then I guess my second question is........what work would be required to the 1977 block to get the 440 rotator into it (forged crank, and I believe 2.067 ch pistons right?) I have been told there is crank thrust differences. How does this correlate from block to block???


And yea, I am being cheap but there are plenty of reasons for this other than dollar$.

Dan

The 70 440 passenger car engine should have pistons that are about .050 in the hole.

 

[Cranky]

Hey Meep, I thought the 6 pack pistons were 2.062? Not enough to worry much vs 2.065. Been awhile since checking any.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Is this the motor that runs 12s in the 1/4 mile with a factory iron intake, AFB carb, and a .484 cam? Yea the KB site says those valve reliefs increase total volume of combustion area by 5 cc.

Yep, this is it, but you are giving me more cam than I have. I'm running the MoPar .455" / 272. Those valve reliefs and the big bore chamfer is responsible for the 10.1:1 CR instead of 10.7 or what ever it ends up with the factory style six pack pistons.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Hey Meep, I thought the 6 pack pistons were 2.062? Not enough to worry much vs 2.065. Been awhile since checking any.

I always remembered 2.065", but like you said it's not worth fussing over .002"

 

[Garys1969RR]

Thanks guys, I found some pistons from a 70 or 71-440 that I am going to check the deck height on. Not sure of the year on these pistons as they came with a steel crank and rods that I bought for the 451 build. But lookin like they are they goin to be about .050" down, as Cranky said the 70s were.

 

[Cranky]

Thanks guys, I found some pistons from a 70 or 71-440 that I am going to check the deck height on. Not sure of the year on these pistons as they came with a steel crank and rods that I bought for the 451 build. But lookin like they are they goin to be about .050" down, as Cranky said the 70s were.

I know that a 1970 passenger car engine was .050 but I'm not sure about a 71 or even what a 70HP was. My understanding is that all engines had even more of a drop in 71 except for the Hemi and the 340 while 72 on got hit even harder and from then on, it was just smog engine dogs. I have a 1970 440 from a New Yucker that is .050 down with 516 closed chamber heads (I stuck those on it) and with a .020 steel gasket, it produces 10.3-1 compression. .070 quench is better than .200+ using open chamber heads with a piston that's down .100+ I suppose. :sex:

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yep, this is it, but you are giving me more cam than I have. I'm running the MoPar .455" / 272. Those valve reliefs and the big bore chamfer is responsible for the 10.1:1 CR instead of 10.7 or what ever it ends up with the factory style six pack pistons.

What heads are you runnin?

 

[court9155]

Im doin just a budget build with the 440 to get the car up and running around. I understand compression heights, deck heights and build decent little motors out of my garage. I have just never "built" big block mopars. I am sure the compression height on the pistons in this 70 motor I have versus the compression height of the pistons in my 78 motor is quite a difference.

I also understand the big chamfer around the bore hurts compression. I also find it weird. I have never tore a motor apart, and I have tore tons apart, that have that huge chamfer.

I digress, I have decided to just lap the valves in these 452s with new springs and seals. Put rings and bearings in the 78 motor and the small 455 mopar cam. It wont be blindingly fast but lets face it, my 66 charger with my 300lb self in the car and nothing more than radials, you wont see me at any race tracks lol. I am going to put some nitrous on it, just in case the thing dont even have enough balls to do burnouts, cuz my 5 year old would be disappointed..........and because I have a few nitrous kits already.

Thanks for the help so far guys and stay tuned for pics as I tinker with the smogger 440!!!

 

[Meep-Meep]

What heads are you runnin?

915's.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Ok I just measured these 70 or 71 pistons I have, and they are .075" down , so I will keep looking. I think for me the best option at this point is using the KB 237 pistons as Meep Meep has done. This will put the deck clearance at .015" . Thats if the deck surface is a true 10.75" from crank centerline. Prob need to be machined to bring it into spec. And 9155 that sounds like a great idea with the nitrous and 452 heads. Let us know how it runs! C Ya

 

[court9155]

Just pulled my smogger 440 down further.

Amazingly it had this double row timing set with a chrysler pentastar on it.....Im positive it is factory:

No oil slinger from the factory:

Another thing, the rings and bearings and cylinders look perfect. I mean I could have just ran this thing. It only had 48K on it and no sludge build up:

Another thing, what is this groove in the rod cap? I am sure it is some kind of oil feed and the bearing has a cutout for it:

One last thing, look at this beast of a piston lol. Im sure it weighs atleast a pound! LOL :

Oh and is this an "LY" rod and what are the benefits?

This engine, is a perfect candidate to put rings and bearings in, new timing set a small camshaft, lap the valves in and put new springs on.

Gonna be fun, docile and with a small shot of nitrous will smoke the hides!! MOPOWER!!!

Dan

 

[RustyRatRod]

What crank? Cast or forged? I had a 77 400 that was a factory forged crank motor.

 

[Cranky]

The slot in the rod cap is for slinging oil up on the opposing wrist pins/cylinders. The LY rods are lighter and still strong and the pistons are closer to 2 lbs each!!

 

[Meep-Meep]

Yep, the little groove in the rod is common on a lot of engines and just slings oil around to lube the cam and pins.

The factory roller chain is cool! I need to mount that to a nice walnut plaque and make a clock out of it for you. Unless you plan to use it... Perhaps that is part of what makes the HD Winnebago motor. No slinger is curious and seems that someone forgot it or the factory didn't think it was necessary. Try to put one on under that sprocket and see if it fits. I bet you will find the edge hits the chain.

LY rods are just standard early 440 rods for my money but I think they were replaced with non LY marked rods toward the end of the BB run. Both LY and non LY look pretty much the same and it could mean that the newer rods without the LY were just made in a different plant. I doubt there is any functional difference between the two. I will agree that lower end is cherry!

 

[court9155]

Yep, the little groove in the rod is common on a lot of engines and just slings oil around to lube the cam and pins.

The factory roller chain is cool! I need to mount that to a nice walnut plaque and make a clock out of it for you. Unless you plan to use it... Perhaps that is part of what makes the HD Winnebago motor. No slinger is curious and seems that someone forgot it or the factory didn't think it was necessary. Try to put one on under that sprocket and see if it fits. I bet you will find the edge hits the chain.

LY rods are just standard early 440 rods for my money but I think they were replaced with non LY marked rods toward the end of the BB run. Both LY and non LY look pretty much the same and it could mean that the newer rods without the LY were just made in a different plant. I doubt there is any functional difference between the two. I will agree that lower end is cherry!

Sorry uncle the timing chain and gears are in the trash. I have plenty of mopar clocks in my garage.

The stock cam and all the lifters but two are also in the trash along with the stock rings and all bearings but one set of rod and one set of main.

The crankshaft is cast, of course.

This is a motorhome, I drove the motorhome before the motor was pulled and yes, again, that motor is sooo cherry. Gonna be neat for a "meantime" 440......if it runs good enough Ill leave it alone.

Thanks for the info on the rod cap slot.

Dan

 

[benno440]

OOPS, so oil slinger goes on before the timing chain sprocket? be good to know before i assemble

 

[Meep-Meep]

OOPS, so oil slinger goes on before the timing chain sprocket? be good to know before i assemble

Yep, and as I mentioned, check it for clearance if using a double roller.

Wait, I screwed up!! It goes on after, but do check it for clearance against the chain.

 

[court9155]

Valve springs

Ok did some measurements and looks like these springs will fit:

TFS-16972-16 summit, trick flow



Now the issue is this......I measure installed height with stock retainers and keepers at 1.8460. Most big block (DCC part number) springs I see are 1.8800 installed height......These springs above are 1.8500.....thoughts? These springs are 54 dollars my cost and Ill use stock retainers and keepers I mean **** its only a .455 cam....

 

[court9155]

Found more neat **** today.

First three main bearings all undersized, 77 date coded clevites. .001 last mains standard, dated 5/78

 

[RustyRatRod]

Cool, then the block pad should be stamped with the maltese cross. That denotes under sized factory bearings.