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Sniper 2

Viper61

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Black Diamond, WA
Hoping someone here can help. Found a mechanic who does the tuning for some of the restoration shops in my area to install a Holley Sniper 2 on my 68 GTX. I was at his shop when he was installing and tuning one on a late 60's Vette. I was impressed so I pulled the trigger. He called and notified me that it was installed, and the car started fine but when he tried to tune it kept throwing error codes every time he made an adjustment. After going over the problem with a Holley tech he was told it was a bad ecu and to send it back, which I did (I bought the parts). I took the new one up with a new harness which he installed, and this one is doing the same thing. Has anyone experienced this? It can't possibly be two bad units in a row can it?
 
i didn't have a Sniper 2 but the previous gen Sniper. it was horrible, couldn't tune the IAC. the first gens were generally junk, a few worked ok. Sniper 2 was supposed to fix the issues but i think the ecm gets electrical interference depending where it is mounted.

i went to an 850 carb and a fuel pressure reducer regulator after throwing the sniper system in the trash.
 
Grounds, grounds, grounds. I had a Sniper on a 427 for a 66 Vette project. No drama here once we got a few little things sorted out. From what I recall, grounding is super important, hot while cranking ignition was another big deal. ECU is on the throttle body, ‘noise’ could be an issue from ignition. What was the code it was throwing? Base tune works fine but changes then throw a code after a program change? My recollection was any tuning was idle or <160* related. Once up to temp and off idle it took care of itself.

Anything is possible but something tells me the next unit will be doing the same thing. One bad out of box, maybe. Two, probably not. Think about it, two bad out of box doing the exact same thing?
 
There are 3 grounds for the system and all wiring close to the unit has been covered in faraday tape to suppress interference. Don't get it. Have to talk to a Holley tech in tomorrow. Starts fine but as soon as something is changed in the tune the car dies. Mechanic is at a loss. He has done numerous Snipers and he has never seen this. Just though I would throw some feelers out. I agree that it is a stretch to get two bad units in a row. Have to keep digging. If I find the answer I will pass it along. Appreciate the feedback
 
the car started fine but when he tried to tune it kept throwing error codes every time he made an adjustment.
Complete and utter bullshit - no Holley EFI product that I know of produces or "throws" OBD II-type error codes. Plus, the likelyhood of the same customer receiving 2 "bad" Snipers in a row is slim to none. Sounds like your guy is struggling and is blaming the part. We've all been there but when someone is paying for your services you gotta do better than that.

Was the car running well before the Sniper? Be honest. If the car was running poorly with a carb it will run poorly with EFI. If the car ran fine then most likely there is a wiring issue and/or RFI possibly causing the ECU to reset. How is the wiring in the car? Poor wiring will undoubtedly cause problems. Again - be honest.

That said, you as the customer should confirm a few things before sending another ECU back - verify he ran the main power and ground directly to the battery and not to the coil positive or cigarette lighter or wherever - battery only. The ECU needs CLEAN power or there will be problems. Ask if he checked fuel pressure - what is it? Should be 58.5-60 psi. Basic stuff.

If that's all OK (and you believe him), tell him to go back and re-load the initial 'wizard' tune up and see if it will run without any other 'tuning' he thinks needs to be done. If you can drive the car around like that, pay him for his time and find someone else to help or learn how to do it yourself. Once it's running get a data log and figure out how to send it to Holley or a remote tuner guy so they can look at it for you and see what if anything is going on.

In general, there should be little to no need to change any parameters at first. Even if you keep the initial start up tune and never upload a custom one, the ECU will still adjust to your driving habits. If your guy can't get the car to run on the basic wizard tune then there's clearly an installation issue that needs to be resolved before you can do anything else. He needs to do that at a minimum since that's what you're paying him to do.

Some other things to consider - what ignition/fuel system is being used? If the Sniper is not controlling timing you're eliminating half of the benefit of EFI. Yes, these things will work several ways but it's always best to get the recommended ignition and fuel delivery components so there's less chance of something that the system was not designed to use causing problems.
 
i didn't have a Sniper 2 but the previous gen Sniper. it was horrible, couldn't tune the IAC. the first gens were generally junk, a few worked ok. Sniper 2 was supposed to fix the issues but i think the ecm gets electrical interference depending where it is mounted.

i went to an 850 carb and a fuel pressure reducer regulator after throwing the sniper system in the trash.
I have a Sniper I unit in my A100....it gets a beating and is reliable as the first day I had it running.

Sounds like I got one of the few that are any good by your comments.

The most important things on any Sniper are the ground connections, the battery connections and the correct fitting of the O2 sensor.
All wiring needs to be installed correctly and by the book or else you will get issues.

Trust me, I tried a short-cut on day one......you learn fast after throwing out a set of plugs after an hour's worth of run time.

Sniper II has an added advantage whereby you can utilise their new wiring harness connector block - a terminal block that simplifies the wiring process....making an amateur look like a real Sparkie. :lol:

@Viper61 - make sure your mechanic has double-checked he has both Positive and Negative for the main harness connected directly to the battery, the O2 sensor is correctly oriented and is connected correctly, and that the grounds are all in place where required.

As for "where the ecm is mounted" - the ECM is mounted inside the Sniper body - so it naturally sits on top of the intake manifold.

One more thing for you guys out there with an early Sniper (this may apply to Sniper II) - the fuel injectors had a tendency to 'fall off' during engine running....causing a dry barrell for that injector.
I made a video of my engine because I found one injector not firing.



 
All of these bolt on EFI kits have all kinds of issues from all of the brand names. We install hundreds of different brands every year. Mainly, it is all the Chinese electrical components/ECU's that cause issues and all the back orders with many kits.
 
All of these bolt on EFI kits have all kinds of issues from all of the brand names. We install hundreds of different brands every year. Mainly, it is all the Chinese electrical components/ECU's that cause issues and all the back orders with many kits.
I'm sorry but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that.

I respond to a lot of these threads because the prevailing attitude seems to blame the electronic aspect of the systems when the real issue is operator or installer error. 9 times out of 10 problems arise because of half-assed installation practices and corner cutting. Go on the Holley website where they offer factory re-manufactured parts at discounted prices. They actually say that 99% of the time there is nothing wrong with the parts that get returned - what does that tell you? This is not an EFI-specific problem - guys have been ignoring instructions and shooting themselves in the foot by doing random crap for decades.

Again - ensure the car is or at least was running well. If you had/have exhaust leaks, intake leaks, misfires, fuel leaks, dim lights, etc. EFI will not cure those ills, it will only magnify them. Also make sure the alternator is putting out enough juice to keep the fuel pump running where it needs to be, especially with the lights on.

If all that checks out, go back to square one and start the install again. Follow the instructions to a T paying particular attention to how the thing is wired. Make sure nothing 'important' is just shoved into a crusty fuse box cavity or spliced into the radio power wire and covered with half a roll of electric tape. Ensure all the connections are terminated properly. I always suggest re-wiring a car before any EFI install. If that's not in the cards, at least make sure all the main wiring is in good shape and there are no burned out bulkhead connectors or what have you.

If/when the car will start, run and stay running, verify the static timing. After that, drive the car without doing anything else and see what happens. Save for verifying the timing, there should be no need to do any sort of tuning at that point. I don't know what adjustments are being made that could cause the thing to shut off the so solution to that is to do nothing. During the test drive, take a data log and look it over for any clues. (the installer is using a laptop to do that right?)

If you or your guy can get to that point without problems, you should be good to go. Only then should you try to upload a known good or custom tune and use that as your starting point for the self learn process. If the new tune does not work, you can go back to the wizard tune and try again. Just understand the generic start up tune is just a baseline to get the car running. Learn to build your own ignition and fuel tables in the software and you will have the car running as sharp as a razor in no time.

I know there will be replies that say I'm talking out my *** and that there's no need to do all that so decide for yourself. I've done a few of them and have been through the sorting out process so I have some idea of what it takes for a successful install. The advertising makes it seem like a piece of cake but that presumes several things; the car runs good, the wiring is good, you're not scared of wiring, electronics or software, you (or the installer) are willing to follow instructions exactly and do whatever it takes to ensure that things are done in a 'best practice' approach, the fuel and charging systems are sufficient and ultimately as the end user you're willing to put the time and effort into optimizing the whole thing.

If you don't want to get involved with any of that, keep your money in your pocket and stay with the carburetor.
 
Are you just using the hand held or an actual laptop? If your using a laptop send me your file and I will look over it. Also double check your firmware on handheld and ECU are up to date.
 
Are you just using the hand held or an actual laptop? If your using a laptop send me your file and I will look over it. Also double check your firmware on handheld and ECU are up to date.
Clearly the guy is using the handheld. If the OP or his guy were using a laptop there would be no reason for this post.
 
I was standing right next to him and he was using a laptop and had it wired directly to the battery. I took a short video of him trying to make and adjustment so I could show what it was doing. I tried to email the video to myself so I could attach it but it is apparently too large. I will get someone with a higher tech IQ than I possess to see if I can post it. As far as to how the car was running, it was running fine. Hard to start when cold but once it is running it is good. According to my "guy" he has the correct firmware. I was in his shop recently while he was installing the same setup on a Vette. I watched him while he was tuning it and he did not have this problem. That doesn't mean it is not operator error though. There is a Resto shop next door to him and they confirmed that he tunes all their builds so I was pretty comfortable going in. Now.....not so sure
 
Are you just using the hand held or an actual laptop? If your using a laptop send me your file and I will look over it. Also double check your firmware on handheld and ECU are up to date.

Are you just using the hand held or an actual laptop? If your using a laptop send me your file and I will look over it. Also double check your firmware on handheld and ECU are up to date.
After going over it with a Holley Tech, turns out you are correct.....firmware update was required!
 
I took a short video of him trying to make and adjustment so I could show what it was doing. I tried to email the video to myself so I could attach it but it is apparently too large.
Post your video to YouTube to make uploading here easy.
 
Well glad you got that part figured out. I apologize for the rant but updating the firmware should be the first thing you do. That's basic stuff.

Beyond the firmware, it's still not clear what your guy was trying to adjust or why. Was there a problem when he test drove it? If the car is running and there is in fact something going on, a data long will point you in the right direction. If there is an RFI issue, it will show up in the data trace. Just have to zoom in on it and select "show points". If there is RFI you will see breaks in the traces.
 
Well glad you got that part figured out. I apologize for the rant but updating the firmware should be the first thing you do. That's basic stuff.

Beyond the firmware, it's still not clear what your guy was trying to adjust or why. Was there a problem when he test drove it? If the car is running and there is in fact something going on, a data long will point you in the right direction. If there is an RFI issue, it will show up in the data trace. Just have to zoom in on it and select "show points". If there is RFI you will see breaks in the traces.
In order to refrain from a long-winded reply, the short answer is that he was trying to tune the car after the installation. He was not able to make tuning adjustments without creating some type chaos elsewhere in the system.
 
I can say from experience that your never really done tuning. The few hours spent on the dyno or in shop will get you close but it will take many many hours of fine tuning to get it perfect. I will data log and correct fuel trim almost every time I drive it. But I'm also trying to perfect the street manners of an almost 900hp 572. Also firmware updates happen quite often with Holley so keep an eye out for them.
 
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I can say from experience that your never really done tuning. The few hours spent on the dyno or in shop will get you close but it will take many many hours of fine tuning to get it perfect. I will data log and correct fuel trim almost every time I drive it. But I'm also trying to perfect the street manners of an almost 900hp 572. Also firmware updates happen quite often with Holley so keep an eye out for them.
I get all that, sure. I was into it far enough where I was making changes on the fly. My buddy makes fun of me for driving around with a laptop. I love that part of it though and it seems like you do do too. I think a lot of guys are content to just let the ECU do it's thing though which is fine but for me that takes the fun out of it.

The OP sorta made it sound like his guy was completely lost though Presumably, if someone is at the point of using a laptop (most guys are not) it stands to reason you'd be aware enough to look for firmware changes before doing anything else so that was a bit surprising.

Also, the OP did not say his guy had driven the car and was trying to work out some bugs (still don't know that) because it seemed (at least to me) like he was "adjusting things" just 'cause. It takes a while for the learn table to populate with usable values. Drive the car and if there is an obvious problem, take a data log and go from there. It's hard to offer accurate help when you don't know all the details.

I would also say this to the OP - learn how to use the software yourself. if you can perform basic file functions like save as and can fill in blank fields you're 95% of the way there. When you build your own fuel and timing tables it will all become clear. Join the Holley forums, there's some good info on there. You can post your config files and data logs for people to review. There are few remote tuners on there if you want to go that route.
 
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