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Toyota's Woes

I was thinking about a new Tacoma, not now...plus they are way too expensive, and I want to enjoy no car payments for a while!

If I want no car payments, then I let my wife drive it..........my wife is where cars go to die. She has NEVER sold a car. They all go to the crusher when she's done with them. Be it her fault, or the other guys, the cars never get out alive.
 
You guys can say F-em and all that stuff, but its going to end up hurting us just as bad or even more then them.
Sure they are going to lose money on making the corrections... and lose sales from people who are scared to buy them now... But were its going to hurt us is when they stop contracting american companys to produce their parts or even close down plants because their sales have taken such a big hit. I think it is a rather scary thought for our economy.[/QUOTE]

Very good point. You folks should remember that it's those "Japs" who opened plants on our shores and saved entire communities. Oh, and wasn't an ailing Chrysler owned by "Nazi's" for a brief period? We perhaps check our own backyard and realize that if we hadn't gotten fat, lazy, complacent and greedy, the imports wouldn't be such a huge part of the market here. And that seriously includes you flag waiving UAW types out there also. Refresh my memory, who works in the Toyota plants here in the states.....
 
Well first off, the only reason they have plants here to begin with is not "we sure do love you americans and we want to help all of you out by employing you", like their commercials depict. No, it's a loophole to avoid import taxes, and also avoid shipping costs. And no! they are not made in america, they are assembled in america with parts from the lowest bidder from all over the world! The initial closing of their plants would be offset by the increase of jobs created for domestic car MFG's. I was unfortunate enough to go through Janesville, WI recently where GM closed a major plant about a year and half ago. Yeah ghost town!! Foreclosure and for sale signs everywhere. Should I be happy KIA opened a plant in Georgia that employs less people per square foot than a sod farm and half the revenue is poured to Aisa?

As far as coming in and saving entire communities, yeah thats a great short term fix. It wasn't because the foreigners came sailing in with a superman cape, here to help out the americans in a dire situation. They build thier plants based off of market opportunties, location, accesibility, and labor force just like any other business. Their strategic decision to build there was not based off restoring community moral and economy. One of the only economic factors they looked at when reviewing areas of American ecomomic downfall is cheaper labor because of competition for jobs and geographical economy. Less money flowing into the Japanesse economy would mean more flowing in to ours, in turn: more money for R/D, technology upgrades, better engineering, state of the art equipment. To think we are better off having foreign companies having plants on american soil, with half the revenue pouring back over seas is just silly. I guess it's easy to look at the short term, yeah they employ people, but as time goes by and they build more and more, how is really helping our economy in the big picture? It's not!!! It's a setup for disaster, with american soil, people, and money being controlled by foreign investors and foreign big business.


I would never buy one of there products! My grandpa fought against them in WWII and two of his cousins (along with countless friends), were killed by them in Midway then Iwo Jima. Now we make their cars for them here on our soil?????? Makes me want to puke! May seem silly to you but it is in my blood and I refuse to support their economy! I'll let a Ford or a Chev park in my driveway anyday, foreign junk, out in the street!!!

I totally agree with the "gotten fat, lazy, complacent and greedy". This country brought this on itself with that kind of mentality. I just hope it can be turned around some way or another

Just my opinion..respect yours the same
 
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If I want no car payments, then I let my wife drive it..........my wife is where cars go to die. She has NEVER sold a car. They all go to the crusher when she's done with them. Be it her fault, or the other guys, the cars never get out alive.


That's hilarious!
 
Rev, you make some valid points my friend. I am UAW at a Chrysler plant. And i also like to wave my flag, but I am NOT ignorant. I am an Electrician and repair the robots and automated systems. So I think that I may have a fair idea of what goes on there. You brought up a lot of very good points. Some you ignored. First off, I have no bias against Japanese people. History is just that, history. Second, would the Japanese auto industry have been able to establish itself in the US had we imposed the trade restrictions that Japan sets against us? I think not. Third, the Japanese trans-plants that assemble cars here have set themselves in the economically depressed, non-union areas of the US. Alabamas, Mississippis, Tennessee's and the other "rural" states. These are places where a non-mine or agricultural job is a god-send. The Asian trans-plants know exactly how much per hour they must pay to keep the Union out. For gods sake, dont ever get hurt in one of them and need disability! Pension, thats your problem. The first plants are now approaching 20 years, workers are getting old, worn out, needing increased medical and time off. Screw em! We can get more! Fire em and hire younger! Sorry Nummi didnt want to stay in the "Peoples Socialist Republik of Kalifornia", but it is damn near a welfare state. Sorry you feel the need to pay for tons of social programs that are used by people there illegally. Kalifornia is uncompetetive. Yes, I admit that the UAW has faults, but every worker safety program has its root in the Union movement. I do not fear free-trade, but it must be FAIR-TRADE!
 
Whoah, Prop, Lighten up Francis. It's your right to hate whomever or whatever you want.
Also, please seperate a soldiers duty from a politicians and propaganda from fact.
I never hated anyone I pulled a trigger on, I was doing my job.....

You ask if I think we are better off having foreign companies on American soil with half the revenue going overseas? Would that be opposed to not having a plant or revenue at all? Or is that instead of American Mfg's having subassembly plants outside of our borders with half of those revenues going outside the U.S.? You're going to have to help me on this one, I seem to be confused.....
 
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Thanks Scott,
I am not against the unions, I do feel that some have there time and their place. You're right, worker safety is a directly rooted in the foundations of the union.
Don't even get me started on my beloved state of confusion, I mean California. I refuse to leave, just to piss these tree hugging, know what's better for me, commies off.
 
I am not defending Toyota or anyone who had an accident when this happened, but keep in mind the average citizen when you think about this:

Most of the Toyota's noted are keyless. They have a pushbutton to start and stop the car. The pushbutton is disabled when the car is moving so you can't accidentally turn off the car at 80 MPH. For a newer Lexus and Toyota you are supposed to know that to stop a racing engine is to hold the start button in for three seconds. Ok, so almost no one knows this, so guess what, people put the car in neutral and the engine races at full throttle or they lay on the brakes until their leg hurts or worse, they just try and get out and let the car go. Ford requires you to push the button multiple times to get it to kill (that seems more natural to a panic'ed american), nissan/infiniti does the same, I think Toyota goofed on the kill method and that is burning them even more.

Second, As an electrical engineer and previous computer programmer, when it was suggested to design the average sedan to drive by wire, I shivered down in the deepest depths of fear. It can easily be a software problem which IF they can find it, is an easy fix (2 seond download), if its a HARDWARE problem, i.e. electrical interference, environmental issues, chip variations, then Toyota is in trouble. Those are really hard to diagnose and even when you think you have a fix, something else can bite you in the rear. Trust me, I did design work on the power systems on the a well-known military helicopter and everytime I thought the shield design would do the job, the smallest thing would make the whole design crash (pun intented).

I feel sorry for the Toyota Engineers right now, I am sure they are being blamed 100% for this even though financial decisions drive their options. Pre-production testing ain't cheap or quick.

Randy

I didn't know about the start button operation. I wonder how many owners of cars equipped with this feature do?
Thanks for the info and the viewpoint.
 
Its fun to have a good, spirited debate with others without name calling and mean-ness. Thanks guys.
 
Whoah, Prop, Lighten up Francis. It's your right to hate whomever or whatever you want.
Also, please seperate a soldiers duty from a politicians and propaganda from fact.
I never hated anyone I pulled a trigger on, I was doing my job.....

You ask if I think we are better off having foreign companies on American soil with half the revenue going overseas? Would that be opposed to not having a plant or revenue at all? Or is that instead of American Mfg's having subassembly plants outside of our borders with half of those revenues going outside the U.S.? You're going to have to help me on this one, I seem to be confused.....

First off, sorry..came off a bit brash. Second, where did I use the word "hate" in my prior post? Third, seperate a soldiers duty from politicians and propagana from fact? So the Nazi's putting jewish people in gas chambers and ovens were just doing thier duty? Or the Japanesse cutting out americans tounges and eyes, well they were just doing there job?
Oh yeah, impaling them with Bamboo shoots too..all in a days work! Sounds like duty to me! My point of view forgive but never forget, history is Philosophy teaching by examples.


I served in the military myself Rev and did get in a few fire fights. Now I'm not going to ride in like a gold pined hero my friend and say i didn't hate them, or whatever task I did was not followed or filled by emotion because it was just part of a job/duty. That would be called a line of ****. Getting shot at, i've never been so scared and pissed off in all of my life! All I wanted to do at the time is put bullets in them as fast as I could and save my own skin. I hated their guts for shooting at me! I don't know if those are the correct words to describe those combined emotions, but like you said, that's my right to use or feel them!

As far as American subassembly plants outside the U.S., I agree with you there-not good, but I was not posting on American Business Economics across borders, I was posting about foreign business here. As far as no revenue vs. foriegn owned, a foreign plant on our soil is a cure for a symptom in which the problem was created. Now let's think about this senario.. Foreign manufactures here in the states employing helpless failing communities because they have no other work. Yeah, right.. Sounds like a pad on the back to me. Created revenue sent back overseas to support foreign markets and economies....Not good, value of the american dollar goes down, in turn, easier and cheaper for foreign investors and business to build more plants here, buy out more american companies or like the swedish in the pulp and paper industry, buy it, lock the doors and there is one less competitor we have to worry about. On top of that, american industry has no credit due to loss of value and foreign markets will not invest (buy/invest american products),or utilize a sinking ship. American businesses continue to close thus more jobs lost. In all actuallity, the few jobs the foreign manufacturing plants here create now, in turn cause 10 times more job loss in the same and other sectors at the same time, while continuing to degrade our image as an economic superpower

As you can see it is pretty much a runaway train, a vicious cycle. How do we fix it? Sure in the hell not buy letting more foreign business build plants on our soil. That's part of the reason there is no jobs/revenue to begin with.

So with that in mind...thanks for the debate...respect your point of view...and who in the hell is Francis?
 
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Propwash and scotts74bird are right on. My father fought the Japs in WWII and I fought the gooks twenty years later in Viet Nam. The only reason that any of their plants are here is to take advantage of tax loopholes.
The unions are the only reason that the working class has anything. You can see what happened since Reagan effectively nutted the unions when he fired PATCO members. Without unions, we can get back to "the good 'ol days" when you worked for the company, lived in company housing, shopped in company stores, got paid in company scrip, and died an early death in company debt.
 
Well first off, the only reason they have plants here to begin with is not "we sure do love you americans and we want to help all of you out by employing you", like their commercials depict. No, it's a loophole to avoid import taxes, and also avoid shipping costs. And no! they are not made in america, they are assembled in america with parts from the lowest bidder from all over the world! The initial closing of their plants would be offset by the increase of jobs created for domestic car MFG's.


:yes:
 
The tax is called The Chicken Tax. This is why they build trucks here in the USA, to avoid the heavy tax/tariff. If we didn't have Unions, we still be working 70 hr weeks for $2.00 an hr, kids under 14 would be working, education would be far lacking. The govt. orchestrated bankruptcy's of GM and MOPAR was to get out of Union contracts, which they have done.

Just think back to the 1970s, remember how much shoes cost then? They were like 40 bucks! Today, you get 'em for 10-20 at Wal Mart.

Toyota builds a good truck; the Tundra, from mostly US content. The Tacoma plant in CA was a joint venture for the GEO, remember that little pile of sh*t? It was a GM/Toyota venture. Time for Toyota to move from CA to TX, yeah, it's good for TX, but, starting wages at the Tundra factory are just over $10.00 per hour, and that's a temp worker, on probation for 90 days at least, then, if hired by Toyota their wage goes up a bit. How can anyone live on $10.00 per hour! That is SLAVE WAGES!!!! And, the lack of Unionization here, and municipalities giving 100% tax abatements for setting up a factory here, this is a recipe for disaster...and the Tundra costs at least 35K for a truck with some meager options! How can the workers afford to buy the trucks? They can't! Henry Ford knew this, and Ford took no Federal Money, look at Ford now...and I'm not a Ford guy, I almost was back in 1988, I almost plunged for the Mustang GT!
 
First off, sorry..came off a bit brash. Second, where did I use the word "hate" in my prior post? Third, seperate a soldiers duty from politicians and propagana from fact? So the Nazi's putting jewish people in gas chambers and ovens were just doing thier duty? Or the Japanesse cutting out americans tounges and eyes, well they were just doing there job?
Oh yeah, impaling them with Bamboo shoots too..all in a days work! Sounds like duty to me! My point of view forgive but never forget, history is Philosophy teaching by examples.


So with that in mind...thanks for the debate...respect your point of view...and who in the hell is Francis?

Propwash, I always respect your point of view, and your points are very valid.
If I get the time today I am going to dig into some of the economics you pointed out here.

I do want to make this very clear. I am in no way denying that the holocost happened. Let's not even go down that road.

Nor am I trying to just pass off the attrocities that happen during war, or the emotions involved during a conflict. I have known people with collections of ears and one rather disturbing gent with a number of items a bit more manly.
I don't want to get into a line of conversation about us versus the godless heathens or any other **** like that.
I was just trying to say that in the base root of it, a war happens because politics fail.
I am very proud to be an American. I will defend my country till my very last breath.
Can we let this dog lay for now? I really need my coffee...
 
Oh, and "Lighten up Francis" is a line out of a movie. Free side of eggs at your nearest Sambo's resturant if you can tell me which movie.....
:D
 
The tax is called The Chicken Tax. This is why they build trucks here in the USA, to avoid the heavy tax/tariff. If we didn't have Unions, we still be working 70 hr weeks for $2.00 an hr, kids under 14 would be working, education would be far lacking. The govt. orchestrated bankruptcy's of GM and MOPAR was to get out of Union contracts, which they have done.

Just think back to the 1970s, remember how much shoes cost then? They were like 40 bucks! Today, you get 'em for 10-20 at Wal Mart.

Toyota builds a good truck; the Tundra, from mostly US content. The Tacoma plant in CA was a joint venture for the GEO, remember that little pile of sh*t? It was a GM/Toyota venture. Time for Toyota to move from CA to TX, yeah, it's good for TX, but, starting wages at the Tundra factory are just over $10.00 per hour, and that's a temp worker, on probation for 90 days at least, then, if hired by Toyota their wage goes up a bit. How can anyone live on $10.00 per hour! That is SLAVE WAGES!!!! And, the lack of Unionization here, and municipalities giving 100% tax abatements for setting up a factory here, this is a recipe for disaster...and the Tundra costs at least 35K for a truck with some meager options! How can the workers afford to buy the trucks? They can't! Henry Ford knew this, and Ford took no Federal Money, look at Ford now...and I'm not a Ford guy, I almost was back in 1988, I almost plunged for the Mustang GT!

Holy Crap! You're bringing Wal-Mart into the fray? I'm running for cover.:grin:

Unions have their time and their place. They have done some amazing things for everyone who works, union or not. They are not faultless in the whole scheme of things either.
Out of curiousity, did the grocery union bosses lose their houses when their members were on strike for something like 18 months?
 
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