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Using Hotchkis' SPS Fox shocks with their recommended t-bar on the street?

Secret Chimp

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I just ordered a set of Hotchkis' SPS shocks to upgrade over the lame-o Monroes on my 67 station wagon.

Currently the car has stock small block bars (.85 or whatever it is), the stock front anti-roll bar and a Hellwig rear bar (huge difference by itself). I'm running regular 15 inch wheels with normal-ratio tires right now but may move to 16s or 17s to fit Wilwood's 12.19" kit in the future. No frame connectors now but that will be done eventually.

Hotchkis claims their 1.1 inch bar, which has a wheel rate of around 250 lbs/in in B-body form, is a good match to their SPS shocks AND ride quality will not suffer. However I don't know exactly what that means.

I know in modern terms that 250 lbs/in is really not that big of a deal and within OEM ranges for some everyday cars, but I'm not sure how this old of a chassis will respond to the increase, even with great shocks. I do know that it can work well, however, as stock Miata springs are super-soft and upgrading to higher-rate springs actually improved my ride as I wasn't blowing through to the bump stops all the time.

Is anyone already street/daily-driving their car with this setup? Would a .960 bar be a better idea to start with? I'm okay with a crisp/firm ride, but I want to be able to take the family on trips in the thing without the thing following the road like a skateboard.
 
I can't remember the exact numbers, but if I remember correctly, every .004" increase in bar diameter gives an increase in stiffness on the order of 14%. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but I know it's over 10% and that number sticks in my head. Remember though that shorter bars of the same diam will be stiffer. That said, the small block B-body bars were .088" I believe, followed by .092", then .096". Current offerings by mopar performance show the .096" max size offered is the big block upgrade size, while stock the big blocks came with .092"s if that gives you some frame of reference.

All of the aftermarket bars by Firm Feel, Hotchkis etc that are greater than .096" were not offered stock on our cars, but some small increases can give huge gains. Too big though and you can get somewhat of a rough ride like you say. Many of these big bars are better suited for racing the twisty tracks, but somewhat bigger can give you improvement on the street.

It's all personal preference though and how the rest of the car is set up. I have a '68 Plymouth Satellite and it came with .088" bars. Pretty soft. I upgraded to .092" bars and while better with my small block, I wish I would have gone to .096". Now I'm upgrading my motor to a big block so I'm going to probably go to 1.000" bars and call it good. (incidentally, the AREngineering article I posted below says that 1.000" bars are somewhat ideal for my car.)

The Hotchkis 1.1" bars would be a pretty huge jump from the 1.000" bars (assuming every .004" increase gives a somewhat noticeable increase in stiffness.) Guys, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think those Hotchkis 1.1" bars are not necessarily meant for the street, but more for road racing or autocross where you have a smooth flat surface to drive on. On 2nd thought, I hear some are running bars bigger than 1.000" with no complaints, so I wouldn't know for sure unless I road in the car myself I guess!

Here's a great read from the experts at AREngineering: http://arengineering.com/tech/torsion-bar-tango/

A great excerpt posted from that site:
A handy rule of thumb is to pick a bar that has a wheel rate that is 1/10thof the front-end weight. For instance, a 3600 pound car with 50% of the weight on the front end has a front end weight of 1800 pounds. A good starting point for the wheel rate would be 1800/10 or 180 lbs./inch bar. Closest bar available for the B body is the 1.00 inch bar with a wheel rate of 186 lbs./inch. For an A body, the 0.920 bar at 150 lbs./inch is probably the best choice. The next size up is the 0.990 bar at 200 lbs./inch which is probably a tad too stiff for most folks. Remember, the A body bars are shorter than the B body bars which makes them stiffer.This rule of thumb calculation is derived from the formula for natural frequency of sprung bodies. This 1/10 rule of thumb provides you with a frequency of about 1.40 cycles per second which is typical for high performance cars. For a more in depth discussion of this topic, check out “How to make your Car Handle”, by Fred Puhn. Be careful with this concept though, since more is not always better. A super stiff front suspension will have a very high natural frequency. If the natural frequency gets high enough, the car will actually be painful to drive.An interesting side note: The 1.00 bar in a 3600 pound B body provides a ride that is noticeably stiffer than the factory springs. Yet, this same wheel rate of 186 lbs/inch was the standard spring rate in the cushy riding Chrysler Imperial. How could that be? The difference is that since the Imperial weighed at least 5000 pounds, the natural frequency of the system is lowered back down to about 1.1 from 1.4. This just goes to show that matching the torsion bar rate to the car weight is the important factor. That is why the rule of thumb of spring rate being 10% of the front end weight works so well. By following that formula, you account for the car weight in your decision.

Drag Race Bars

A fairly common question people have is if they can use the drag race bar on street driven cars. Obviously, this low rate bar is going to have difficulty controlling a heavy car during cornering so a person wouldn’t want it for any type of daily driving. But the real reason to avoid such a bar on the street has to do with fact that this bar could be dangerously overloaded in such situations. Remember, the torsion bar is nothing more than a spring. And much like a valve spring that is overloaded, an overloaded torsion bar can fail. With a spring rate of only 92 pounds per inch of travel, the drag race bar has to be severely twisted to support the nose of a heavy car. Such a dramatic amount of twisting sends the internal stresses sky high. If the car hits a large bump and bottoms out, this overloaded bar could snap from the stress. Even if it doesn’t snap right away, the life of such an overload spring is going to be fairly short.The importance of matching the weight of the car to the bar size is shown by calculating twist as a function of force.Bar size Twist required to support 1000 lbs Stress in bar

.840 52 degrees 112,000 psi

.920 36 degrees 85,000 psi

1.00 26 degrees 66,000 psi

As you can see, the .840 diameter bar must be twisted twice as much as the 1.000 bar in order to support 1000 pounds of weight. This severe twist increases the stress in the bar by almost a factor of 2. Bottom line is that the drag race torsion bars are just too small for street use on the heavy B body. Minimum bar size should be the 0.920 bar in order to keep the stress level within reason.

One item to consider when using drag race bars is to use a heavier bar as the car gets faster. You’ll want to look at this as a way to control the front end of the car and prevent it from wheel standing or hanging up in the air at the fast end of the track. A heavy car probably needs a softer spring in the front to get some weight transfer to the rear tires but as your car gets faster and faster, you’ll want more control up front.
 
Dan from Hotchkis frequents that other Mopar forum and has assured others with the "ride quality is not affected" type things. I just don't quite know what that means.

In one post, I believe he confirmed the wheel rate as 250 lb/in or something like that. That seems in line with FF's 1.06 bar having a 225 lb/in WR.

So the bar's rate is a given, I'm just not sure what that actually means on these cars. The springs I have on my Miata are about 200 lb/in at the wheel and it's a slightly crispy ride (and it's similarly a tad floppy chassis-wise). But I also barely have 1000 pounds on the nose while my wagon has at least twice that.

Though I just checked Hotchkis' site again and it looks like they're doing pre-orders for a 1.03" bar now due in November. If that's in demand maybe that's a clue 1.1" is a bit much. I have to remind myself that this is also a family car and I already have my little skateboard car for taking turns...
 
I have the Firm Feel 1.06 bars and my wife does not complain about the ride... the exhaust is a different story. I drive it daily when it is not torn apart and it is a firm ride but not as bad as a sports car. In high school a friend had an 86 IROC with the handling package. That car stock rode rougher than my big block 66 Charger with the Hotchkis TVS and firm feel 1.06 bars and stock replacment billstein shocks. I am in the process of upgrading to 18" rims and 4 wheel disks. Once that is done I will be able to comment on ride quality. Living in Oklahoma we are known for having crappy roads also.
 
And it really is tough to tell people how it feels, because it is the shocks that really tie the wheel rate and ride quality together. That said, the 1.1 bar will offer a much more sporty feel, without the harshness a 1.18 and a 1.24 bar will give you. The really higher rates lock out the suspension for a more spring loaded go-kart feel, and transmit too much of the twist and load to teh chassis while not allowing the suspension to do it's job. While the softer rates with the shocks allow the suspension to work a bit better, and still provide the handling quality we expect from a "sportier" suspension. A perfect example to road quality/ride quality: My wife and I just drove a 400 mile trip in her 62 Dart (Full TVS) to compete in an SCCA event this last weekend. With her little airplane pillow she was crashed out for the whole 3 hour morning drive. We both drove the car at the event and cruised it home after dinner. The kit makes for a great cruising car that can be played with as well.
 
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