Welders beware!! Read this......!!

[bobtile]

@Moparmatt72 ,
Care to share your thoughts? You hit the red x.

 

[Moparstyle]

Hey all,

I saw this on another site and thought it deserved to be posted. Read it.

This was published in American Iron Magazine in the August 2009 issue.

Please read and pass it on.

Brake Cleaner = Phosgene Gas

By Steve 'brewdude' Garn

Yep, I thought this time I was a goner! How simple it was to get in trouble. Please take the time to read this and pass it on. After time we see and read many warning labels that we no longer heed. We buy chemicals and sprays at a local parts house and think to ourselves how can this be so bad health wise if we use it, I am buying it over the counter? So, this is how my story starts.

So I had a rush job welding 4 diesel semi tanks to patch that were pitted from road salt corrosion. Normally I spray a little carb cleaner, wipe it off, light the acetylene torch and preheat to get rid of any solvents. The gas station close to the shop was out of carb cleaner so I picked up a can of brake cleaner and went thru my regular routine. I even had the shop door open and the exhaust fan on. I started TIG welding (3pm Thursday) and had no problem in the beginning. Then, I started welding across a really pitted area and came across a couple of drops of cleaner still left in a deep pit. When I came close a small puff of white smoke puffed and immediately almost passed out. I then made it outside and sat for a while in the fresh air. After about 10 minutes I went to the office at the house and sat at the computer to check the warnings on the brake cleaner can when my whole left side started shaking for about 10-15 minutes. The can said ‘Vapors may decompose to harmful or fatal corrosive gases such as hydrogen chloride and possibly phosgene.



After reading about Hydrogen Chloride and then started researching phosgene. The chemical in the brake cleaner is Tetrachloroethylene. When this chemical is exposed with excessive heat and argon (used in MIG and TIG welding) it also produces phosgene.

Some Phosgene facts. Google Phosgene and read more!

It can be fatal with a dose as little as 4 parts per million.

Symptoms can be delayed from 6-48 hours after exposure.

There is NO antidote for Phosgene.

Long term effects can be chronic bronchitis and emphysema.





My breathing still was hard. So I called my wife in town (20 mins. away) and she said to call the ambulance which I didn't do. I waited at home for another hour and felt a little better so I decided to drive into town and meet my wife for supper and also living way out in the country brought me closer to the hospital in case I felt worse. The chlorine taste and smell in my nose and mouth was still very strong but went out later for pizza and then went to watch a basketball game. I felt a little better until I went outside after the game into the fresh air and then the smell and taste of chlorine almost overwhelmed me. I still went home hoping time would make me feel better.
About midnight (Thursday) I started coughing, my chest started hurting but thought that this would pass after a nights sleep. The next day (Friday)symptoms got worse and kidneys started hurting so I drank a bunch of liquids and cranberry juice. For 4 days pissed a lot of clear fluid with no smell. On Saturday I was really in a lot of pain. On Sunday I felt a little better and went to a friend’s house to watch the superbowl game. When I came home I felt very weak and tired. Monday I still was about the same. Tuesday I felt a little better and went into the shop for a couple of hours. Piss was very dark and a lot of smell this day. Still couldn't crap. Wednesday felt pretty good and I worked for about 5 hours. Thursday was even better day so I decided I would drive to Cincy with Chad to the VTwin expo on Friday. I felt okay but was very tired and weak. That Saturday I went out with friends but I didn’t feel quite right. I felt crappy on Sunday and left the expo about 2pm. The trip home was 375 miles and arrived home about 10pm that night feeling very tired. My wife made the comment that I looked awful (some home greeting). At midnight I lost all balance, was dazed, confused and could hardly talk so I then went to the Emergency room. My symptoms were Oxygen level low, sugar out of control, vertigo and I was hurting badly in my entire chest. They admitted me and put me in the ICU. They said my kidneys had probably shut down for those 4 days, my lungs were damaged so I had to be on oxygen and that I would have to be on insulin to keep my sugar in check. The doctor and neurologist called CDC to try to figure out what to do since there is no antidote for phosgene. Basically to try to rest and hope it gets better. After CT, MRI, EKGs, EEG and several other blood tests it looked like at this time there was no permanent damage. The EEG was taken because of the shaking earlier of my left side was a seizure caused by the chemicals. The EEG determined that there was no permanent damage. But the MRI showed fluid in sinuses and a build up of fluids near the brain. The gas scarred up my sinuses and then became infected causing these fluids. The 3 doctors I saw said I was really lucky to make it.
Now it has been 4 weeks. Another Doctor who specializes in toxology is now seeing me. He thinks I may have emphysema and chronic bronchitis. So at this time I am on nasal medicine and an inhaler. My sinuses are severely scarred and nose smell nerves are damaged. I still have that awful chlorine taste and smell. I am also going to ear, nose throat Dr on Thursday. I will also know later on any pancreas damage from the blood tests that I had taken. The insulin that I was taking had little effect on sugar and I can't keep it in control. So we are trying a different approach with Lantos (long lasting insulin) and other medicines. Sleeping is off and on and I will have a sleep test next Tuesday. I am feeling somewhat better but still very tired. This will go on for a while but I have full faith that all will be fine after time.



On some forums some suggest using a cleaner without this chemical. Other chemicals I found in other sprays in my shop include, xylene, toluene, methylene chloride, ketones, pentane, cyclohexanes, heptane, methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), methanol, tetrahydrofuran and petroleum napththa. There are actually more but you get my point, right? All the chemicals listed above have heath issues! So check your sprays and know the health hazards and their correct use.

Chris Maida has called and checked up on me several times. He said it is a shame I went thru this ordeal. But, I disagree. If it saves someone an illness or a death it is worth going thru this if this is what it takes.

Please read labels and warnings. Look up the chemicals you use. Also keep these sites and phone numbers nearby.

www.aapcc.org Phone # 1-800-222-1222

www.cdc.gov

Your local hospital phone #




Thanks to American Iron Magazine to publishing this!


Go out in yer shop and read all of the cans of stuff you have been using every day, be wise, stay alive.

Ghost...

Ive been a mechanic and welder for over 30 years and never knew that thanks for te heads up

 

[khryslerkid]

Seems appropriate here....
View attachment 569969

I've had to fix stuff like that before!

 

[Moparmatt72]

@Moparmatt72 ,
Care to share your thoughts? You hit the red x.

Sorry hit it on accident when scrolling down with my finger on my phone, been a bit since last on here. My bad

 

[Moparmatt72]

Seems appropriate here....
View attachment 569969

Knew a guy that said he knew how to weld and ended up using a almost full spool of welding wire on his brackets for a intercooler. Alot of good info on here, when ever I do or i have a friend who's a professional welder did any welding on any of my cars always made sure to have a fan on where we were or close by that the breeze hits us.

 

[Brandy]

Here's some further reading on welding and fabrication from another site i'm on...

http://ramchargercentral.com/longevity/

 

[PlagueOfBadgers]

Question for the welders here about gas flow rate.
I purchased a Hobart Handler 140 Mig welder to do body work on our car and small projects around the house. I also purchased a gas bottle, 75% - 25%. I would like to build a cart for the welder and gas bottle but want it to be strong.

I have a small fan running to move air, read the warnings here and on the net about staying away from the fumes produced and not to use chemicals for cleaning the metals. I am not trained in welding but have learned what little bit I know by being around welders. I do not want to waste gas or have to much gas coming out messing up the puddle.

What would be a good recommended rate of gas flow for a non windy area?
I know there is a lot more to this then just a simple answer but what would be a good start. I have read 15 up to 25, 30.
Thanks in advance, Plagueofbadgers.

 

[khryslerkid]

25 -30 is a good starting point. I'll run upwards of 40 on a flow meter. They are the best for a nice flow. The guages are fine for what you have. If you are noticing a brown color on each side of your weld, you need a little more gas. Don't blow air across your work. Place the fan so that it pulls the smoke away and just keep your face out of it if you can.
Happy Welding

 

[ws23jrt]

You are asking about two different topics.
A good gas flow for the protection of the melted puddle (from oxygen) is for the good of the weld. 20 to 25 CFM should be plenty to protect the weld.

What you are welding on that can make harmful gasses for you to breath is the other topic. Ventilation is important as a rule. Still, air with your head in the smoke is not good. An exhaust fan of some kind will be good for you and not bad for the weld being covered by your flow meter.

As for cleaning metal for welding?? In my experience grinding/sanding for a fit is plenty of cleaning. A slight film of oily residue can be welded just fine as the welding action is a great cleaner by its nature.

The best and safest answer I have for avoiding "special cleaners" and what they may impart to the air you inhale (when welding) is to leave them for after your welding is done.

Some chemicals may be good for paint prep but not proper for weld prep.

 

[PlagueOfBadgers]

25 -30 is a good starting point. I'll run upwards of 40 on a flow meter. They are the best for a nice flow. The guages are fine for what you have. If you are noticing a brown color on each side of your weld, you need a little more gas. Don't blow air across your work. Place the fan so that it pulls the smoke away and just keep your face out of it if you can.
Happy Welding View attachment 604918

I did notice small brown spots on the practice welds after lowering the flow, thank you for that extra information. I did have the flow at 30 with no brown spots but thought I might be using more then needed. Back up to 25 30 where I started.

 

[451Mopar]

This reminded me that I forgot to turn the bottle off after I used it. I must have a slow leak when not using the gas and now I'm pretty low on Argon for the TIG welder. Usually I just set for 20 CFH with the smaller 180 A and less MIG welders (smaller mig torch/gun). I could use less flow for most stuff, but usually I am welding just inside the garage with the garage door open, so not the ideal environment if it gets windy.

 

[khryslerkid]

This reminded me that I forgot to turn the bottle off after I used it. I must have a slow leak when not using the gas and now I'm pretty low on Argon for the TIG welder. Usually I just set for 20 CFH with the smaller 180 A and less MIG welders (smaller mig torch/gun). I could use less flow for most stuff, but usually I am welding just inside the garage with the garage door open, so not the ideal environment if it gets windy.

You'll learn to turn that bottle off when your done useing it. Regulators leak some, the solenoid in the machine doesn't always hold, so you might leak a little. Not remembering to turn the bottle ON will piss you off after you realize it. Lol

When the switch on the welder gets turned on, I'll turn on the bottle. When the welder gets turned off, I'll turn the bottle off.

 

[451Mopar]

I have a "Y" adaptor valve after the regulator that might be leaking. One outlet goes to the Miller Dynasty 280 TIG, the other outlet is used to back-purge, but the valve on the purge "Y" might be leaking?

 

[Ron H]

I'm a safety/industrial engineer and have worked with many companies on osha's hazard communication standard compliance most find boring and irritating except for those who've encountered what people have posted here. This is why the safety data sheets on these products are required and the use of proper PPE and other controls are recommended. Many are lucky they get away with overlooking the safety info; but then some not. Guy I know that worked in refrigeration service needs a lung transplant to make it to old age. I'll want to cut and paste these posts for people I train to read.

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

WOW! I use brake cleaner all the time. But don't use it in any welding related matters. Still good to know!

 

[steve from staten island]

Be careful with argon in a confined space. I welded a aluminum floor in a large walk in freezer with a spool gun. I was in there for about a hour and got sick. I was coughing and couldn't breath. It was a overnight job and had to be finished. I took a break got some water and set up a fan by the door to pull fumes out. Put a respirator on also. Be careful is the bottom line

 

[Ron H]

Be careful with argon in a confined space. I welded a aluminum floor in a large walk in freezer with a spool gun. I was in there for about a hour and got sick. I was coughing and couldn't breath. It was a overnight job and had to be finished. I took a break got some water and set up a fan by the door to pull fumes out. Put a respirator on also. Be careful is the bottom line

Yeah! Confined or semi-confined areas can develop a dangerous atmosphere right quick. I had done metering of these areas with guys working within and in less than a minute a safe atmosphere became unsafe IDLH. Supplied air respirators and or ample ventilation is a must.

 

[ws23jrt]

Another welding issue/hazard comes to mind aside from the air we breathe.
A friend of mine had a tig welding task inside a large stainless tank. It was big and well ventilated. It was summer and temps were high.
He took off his shirt because of the temp. Not a good move.
The inside of the tank was shiny. The light from the arc was reflected onto all sides of my friend's body and caused bad burns that put him down for a week.

Also a personal experience with the light of a welding process.--
My partner was the welder and the process was aluminum mig. I was holding parts in place for tack welds and would say ok and shut my eyes while he made the tacks. All this took only about 15 minutes and maybe a doz. tack welds.
My problem was my eyelids were burned and an hour later it felt like I had sand in my eyes. I could see ok but blinking was a huge pain.
I had been a "welder" for 30+ years and still had to actually feel for myself the power of that light.

 

[Ron H]

Felt like sand was in your eyes? I had that happen but a mild version by comparison. Absolute bitch getting over it.

 

[Brandy]

Hey guys! I'm happy to see that this thread has been read by so many since 2015 when I posted it. keep checking back and this will keep the subject up front on the forum so new guys will see it too! Thanks for all of the stories and the participation here. Be careful out there.

Ghost