Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

[moparedtn]

I had 383 that a lifter collapsed while I was driving. Exhaust valve, you could hear it in the tailpipe. Rocker sounded like a guy playing the spoons. Engine shook like a plug wire was off.

Yep, the sound this one was making is very much a metallic SMACK sound, staccato style in time to the "wobble" in the engine. Same shaking like a wire was off or a plug fouled.

 

[Ski 61701]

Since you are going to get a checking pushrod (good thinking), I would pull all of the lifters and take each one apart to see if any of them are damaged on the inside. Like I mentioned way back when its going to be time consuming, but you will know for sure that your lifters are either 1. Ok or 2. Broken plunger spring etc. I'm curious to the integrity of the lifters especially on the cylinders that are either too lean or rich. Unless your heads have been milled so much that they have become closed chamber chances of piston to valve contact should be nil.

 

[moparedtn]

Since you are going to get a checking pushrod (good thinking), I would pull all of the lifters and take each one apart to see if any of them are damaged on the inside. Like I mentioned way back when its going to be time consuming, but you will know for sure that your lifters are either 1. Ok or 2. Broken plunger spring etc. I'm curious to the integrity of the lifters especially on the cylinders that are either too lean or rich. Unless your heads have been milled so much that they have become closed chamber chances of piston to valve contact should be nil.

This is one of the 906's before being bolted on:

I dunno, is that a lot of meat taken off of it?

 

[miller]

I dunno, is that a lot of meat taken off of it?

Sorry, I've been out the door for awhile. Meat taken off the heads? Was anything said on the heads, when you bought them, as far as that? You've gotta understand something...motors is a numbers game...measurements! And, what you do with them.

To the tappet stuff (yeah, I'm playing my naming game, again)...meat off the heads, or deck surface are a big effect on the valve train. Period. You take that for what it's worth. The numbers involved are a must know deal!

Okay...metallic noises...something banging together...
Tappets bottoming (via too much pre-load, via too long push rods), valve spring coils getting together, valves hitting pistons...on and on...
Problem is, everything needs to be checked. There's a problem somewhere, and it needs to be found. Yeah, I know. I've been there...

Just to toss a wrench into the works...on the ill fitting intake manifold...sounds like the wrong thickness head gasket (that would put those holes back in line). YES, other things need to be considered, compression ratio, and such. Ya get what ya get.

 

[khryslerkid]

To entertain your question, the actual measurement is taken from the flat spot (red arrow) to the gasket surface. (452 head)

A rough measurement can be taken at the bolt surface to the gasket surface. It will measure 1" on a uncut head. (452 head)

 

[moparedtn]

I posted the pic of the head in response to Ski. I was asking if it looked like a lot of "meat" had been taken off of it, so much so that as he said it had become "closed chamber" de facto and bringing into play possible valve/piston contact.
I used FelPro head gasket #8519, the PermaTorque blue ones that are .040 thick, in an amateur effort to offset some of the machining, to add some thickness there.

 

[khryslerkid]

I posted the pic of the head in response to Ski. I was asking if it looked like a lot of "meat" had been taken off

 

[Garys1969RR]

Yep! Looks like most of the meat has been taken off of that head! Ha Ha!

 

[Ski 61701]

The Kid's pics are really good as far as giving one a ball park idea as to how much "meat " has been removed. I hope we arent confusing you with kinda jumping all over the place with ideas. I'd say once you get your checking pushrods see what overall length you come up with, Im interested in what you find, in addition to the internals of the lifters. Maybe you might get lucky that your pushrods were just long enough to unfortunately damage some of the lifters, and all you have to do is replace lifters and pushrods and that part is all good. I wonder if using some sort of angle finder on the end rail will give you an accurate enough measurement so you can get your intake cut, to match the heaf angle, or if you go to a .051 thick gasket I think is a FelPro 1105, if that would be an option in bringing back measurements of the pushrods, intake manifold angles within factory specs. Let the time burglaring commence in trying to figure it out.

 

[miller]

Let the time burglaring commence in trying to figure it out.

Like it!

It's not rocket science, but will take some thought on what's there, and what to do with it. I wouldn't worry about push rod length, until a mock-up of the deck to head to intake manifold deal is squared. Meaning a reasonable line-up of the bolt holes.
Heads in place, manifold in place, look at the holes location, and figure how much the heads need to move, and which way. Thicker head gaskets move the intake holes in the heads farther apart...right?

All that, but, yeah sounds like issues with the tappets, also. They should be able to pump up, and bleed down...and feel that via the rocker arms.

 

[moparedtn]

I reckon putting thicker head gaskets would obviously drop compression even more, right? Heck, I didn't even know there were thicker head gaskets out there than these FelPros.
Not that it matters on this particular engine, least to me....

I understand the geometry of the fitment of the intake - how the lower the heads sit on the block, the closer the intake face of them get to each other, "pinching" the intake manifold.

Pushrod checker ought to be here soon. I'll do more then.

 

[miller]

A toss in...just in case.

Been talked about digging into the tappets...okay.
Used tappets MUST go back into the same tappet bore removed from. Don't swap them around.
If you do bust down any tappets (internals), for each tappet, internal parts stay with that tappet. Other words, don't swap parts around. The cup, or piston, is supposed to be a precise fit, very close.

 

[Ski 61701]

Yes fel pro makes a thicker gasket but there are 2 different part #s if memory serves me correctly I think the 1105 gasket has a bore size of 4.059 ??? and the other part # has a smaller bore size.
Yes by raising the head up you in effect open the space where the intake sits. Now comes the catch 22 part. Without knowing exactly how much has been taken off of each head you could still have alignment problems thats where the "Kid" showed everyone where to measure on the lower bolt boss, this is where if you can get a pair of calipers in there and get a good measurement it might give you an idea if they were milled the same amount, hopefully they were.
Second thing is by re- creating the additional space of a thicker gasket, you now lose some quench that has been created, and you create more of an oem open chambered head.
Another thing to look at is the intake side of the head itself to see if they may have been milled. Its pretty rare to see this, but Ive run into this on a couple of occasions before. A tell tale sign is if you see half moon striations on the intake face of the head. An oem head intake surface has a raised lip from the surrounding surface.
Not trying to give you more homework here just something to look at while doing your detective work.

 

[dvw]

If the intake bolts went in my bet I'd they were cut .060" or less. Test fit the intake w/o gaskrts. If it lines up the intake face of the head or the intake itself needs the compressed thickness of the gasket removed.
Doug

 

[moparedtn]

A toss in...just in case.

Been talked about digging into the tappets...okay.
Used tappets MUST go back into the same tappet bore removed from. Don't swap them around.
If you do bust down any tappets (internals), for each tappet, internal parts stay with that tappet. Other words, don't swap parts around. The cup, or piston, is supposed to be a precise fit, very close.

Thanky kindly sir.

 

[moparedtn]

If the intake bolts went in my bet I'd they were cut .060" or less. Test fit the intake w/o gaskrts. If it lines up the intake face of the head or the intake itself needs the compressed thickness of the gasket removed.
Doug

Like I posted above, I did just that. Had a heck of a time getting them started even without gaskets of any sort in there.

 

[moparedtn]

Yes fel pro makes a thicker gasket but there are 2 different part #s if memory serves me correctly I think the 1105 gasket has a bore size of 4.059 ??? and the other part # has a smaller bore size.
Yes by raising the head up you in effect open the space where the intake sits. Now comes the catch 22 part. Without knowing exactly how much has been taken off of each head you could still have alignment problems thats where the "Kid" showed everyone where to measure on the lower bolt boss, this is where if you can get a pair of calipers in there and get a good measurement it might give you an idea if they were milled the same amount, hopefully they were.
Second thing is by re- creating the additional space of a thicker gasket, you now lose some quench that has been created, and you create more of an oem open chambered head.
Another thing to look at is the intake side of the head itself to see if they may have been milled. Its pretty rare to see this, but Ive run into this on a couple of occasions before. A tell tale sign is if you see half moon striations on the intake face of the head. An oem head intake surface has a raised lip from the surrounding surface.
Not trying to give you more homework here just something to look at while doing your detective work.

*head explodes*
Yep, a replacement engine is looking better and better....

 

[Ski 61701]

I see your point with a replacement engine. But unless if you are there every step of the build process, the chance of having a Monday or Friday motor could come back and suprise you, not that any of us want that to happen, but it could. Hate to see you go through this again for some other weird problem. If it was mine Id work with what i have and go from there. I like to figure out the "proverbial" puzzle per se.

 

[Garys1969RR]

If the intake bolts went in my bet I'd they were cut .060" or less. Test fit the intake w/o gaskrts. If it lines up the intake face of the head or the intake itself needs the compressed thickness of the gasket removed.
Doug

I had some heads cut .030". Didn't want to cut the intake face, cause you then have the end rails of the block sticking up, which plays havoc with the valley pan fitting right. So I just elongated the intake bolt holes downward .030. That worked great! You also have to raise the port window at the top of the intake port. You can also do the bottom of the manifold port, but I like to leave a port mis match there. That helps to cancel out reversion pulses coming up the intake runner towards the carb.[/QUOTE]

 

[1967coronet]

Ed, at the risk of getting some hate mail my way .
here is my 2 cents.
If I recall the past posts you have a decent compression reading bottom end ? 135/140ish.
not top fuel readings for sure but useable.
Me, I was/am one of your 2 votes for replace but have one more idea. I may be wrong but I think your main goal was to just get the X up and running decent.
Why not just get a set of uncut/ recon stock heads , 452s , 906s , ect but stone stock, stock push rods, springs, rockers and shafts. The new cam/lifters was a question as to condition after this last round. so just use the regular old 440 mag grind that will work fine with the stock heads / valve train/ new cam bearings if needed. just put her back together like ma mopar did , take your 350/375 hp and motor off for the summer. a set of stock recon heads , cam kit & bearings, push rods and gaskets will be less cost than the replacement engine and you know it will all work fine together as long as the pistons are under the deck a bit.