What carb to choose? Mostly stock 440 GTX

[Seventy]

http://promaxcarbs.com

I don't think he is on ebay...

 

[Bigal75]

What's the issue with the Holley?

 

[SlinktRR]

What's the issue with the Holley?

Before you give up on the 3310 you could run it on a chassis dyno to get it tuned. Of course, for the price of the tune you could have a brand new carburetor... but joy is never guaranteed with a new carb either.

I have the 650 and 800 AVS I picked up used and like them. Parts interchange but very different character. The 650 has small primaries and really moves when the bigger secondaries open while netting very respectable mpg at cruise, because the secondary air door is closed most of the time. But it falls off at 5000rpm on a big block. It's small for 383/440 but for cruising it is really hard to beat. Good for a daily driver..

The 800 is a performance carb with 4 equal sized primaries/secondaries and you can change jets without having to drain the bowls. Will rev well past 5k. Still has the AVS door that you can tune to bring in secondaries earlier or later. The ebrocks are good for fine tuning part and full throttle with simple metering rod changes that take literally a minute to do. Easy to take apart and rebuild. I run one set of rods for summer and a richer calibration for cooler fall temps. I would only look at the AVS, not the performers. You can usually find the 800 used as folks buy them for a performance application and find out that they need more carb. The only way you can get more carb from AVS is dual quads.

 

[moparedtn]

http://promaxcarbs.com

I don't think he is on ebay...

Tried to give them a ring the moment you posted the number, but they close at 5.
Will have to try again after work today. I don't normally presume to call someone out of the blue and start asking a bunch of what have to be annoying as hell questions to a dude I don't know (it's gotta be aggravating to them, after all), but if you say he's cool with it, I'll lay it on him.
Worst he can do is tell me to scram, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Question for the group:
When an engine literally runs out of carburetion during a pull, what behavior is exhibited?
Say the carb is too small or under-jetted or such and you're up in the RPMs running with the accelerator floored, what does the engine act like when it simply runs too lean to go further?

 

[747mopar]

Novice at the Edelbrocks here. Which model 750 is the one you're speaking of, the "standard" Performer or...?

I've spent enough time on that website to figure out only a couple things, like the Thunder ones are true AVS carbs but are like 800cfm, for example - sounds like a big ol' carb for a stock 440 to me.

- - - Updated - - -


Aye, and a better quality one at that.
"Don't half-*** it, son..."

Lookit, I coulda sworn you were one that replied to some of my other posts in regard to tuning the 3310, but I could be mistaken. If not, suffice to say there's been a LOT of tuning going on with the dang thing, based on straight up advice received here at FBBO as well as extensive time spent with the Holley tech support people.
I've got quite a collection of jets, power valves and what not as a result and to be honest, the car is fine between 1100 and 4000 RPM.
It could just be I got a lemon for all I know.
It could just be the gas we have around here is crap, regardless of the multiple brands (including "100% pure" stuff).
I have had to replace one flex line between the metal line from the tank and the pump, for example, even though it was new just a couple years ago - gas ate it up and separated inner from outer, no shiyat.

I just want to see if another carb makes things better - and after all, the eternal search for making our stuff better is a major part of the hobby, is it not?
I'm going to find out, but in typical Ed manner, I'm gonna research hell out of it and ask for anyones' opinion who has travelled in these same footsteps before me.
Just makes sense.

- - - Updated - - -


Tons of 'em, spanning all the way back to 2011. Most actually have "Holley" and some have "Holley 3310" specifically.
Still other threads that started out talking about ignition or whatever steered back to the Holley with time.

Can you tell I'm sick to death of fooling with this carb?
Damn thing is still spotless and like new. I'm gonna sell it to Seventy.

- - - Updated - - -


Now that you mention it....

- - - Updated - - -


Does "right there at the end" mean last choice, I presume?
Yep, current PV in the 3310 is the 65 (half the vacuum @ idle roughly, as Holley tech said) after trying lower ones.
Winds up, that's the one that comes in a 3310 to begin with.
Carb came with 70 (!) primary jets when it was supposed to have 72's stock - I have 75's in it now.
Accelerator is snug without actuating @ idle. Mixture screws set for best idle RPM AND best vacuum.
Carb is absolutely spotless inside and out, has the purty "pewter" shiny finish. All ports are clear, gaskets perfect.
Makes a darn good looking devil sitting on the stock intake.

Further, let me state for the record all you holley fans, that I have been a huge FAN of the 3310 for several decades now. I've never had issues at all, heck most of the time I've never even had to change any internals, when using them on stock 440's - every one of the half-dozen or so 440 cars I've owned over the years (and even a couple 383 'Bees) LOVED this carb!
This one is a first. Hate giving up on it, but you can only fool with something for so long until it's time to move on, lest you lose motivation - and I don't have the time left on this planet for that.
So....Holley goes away, to be replaced by ????

Yeap, they're one of my least favorites. I had one on a 460 years ago and had nothing but trouble with it vapor locking plus when I opened it up I wasn't impressed with the casting at all (rough accelerator well). I just don't think they're anywhere close to most in quality but many on here have had luck with them but I see way more that won't touch them and I suspect for the same reasons I gave.

 

[Seventy]

There great guys, ask him about the carbs he has on special or building you a rebuilt specifically for your engine. It doesnt get easier than having a carb shipped to you that has already been ran on the dyno on an engine similar to yours, tuned for your engine. Or send him your carb, have him check it out, build it and tune it for your motor...

You wont be sorry...

 

[Bigal75]

Tried to give them a ring the moment you posted the number, but they close at 5.
Will have to try again after work today. I don't normally presume to call someone out of the blue and start asking a bunch of what have to be annoying as hell questions to a dude I don't know (it's gotta be aggravating to them, after all), but if you say he's cool with it, I'll lay it on him.
Worst he can do is tell me to scram, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Question for the group:
When an engine literally runs out of carburetion during a pull, what behavior is exhibited?
Say the carb is too small or under-jetted or such and you're up in the RPMs running with the accelerator floored, what does the engine act like when it simply runs too lean to go further?

Depends. If it's going lean then it won't pull and may surge or ping or die out. Too rich it won't pull hard, what's going on?

 

[moparedtn]

Hey, have you Carter guys checked out the carb I linked previously? It's for a 1969 440 A/T car and looks really good.
What were the differences between the A/T and M/T carbs, just the provision for kickdown lever?

- - - Updated - - -

Depends. If it's going lean then it won't pull and may surge or ping or die out. Too rich it won't pull hard, what's going on?

Oh man, I've written novels in previous threads on the behavior of this thing and all the changes I've tried based on Holley and FBBO member suggestions.
Briefly - pulls ok up to about 4400RPM or so, then starts heavily hesitating/bucking/breaking up.
I've wrestled with the ignition, which apparently loves it the more I RETARD the timing for some reason.
(Mopar Electronic ignition conversion kit is installed)
Can't run advance at all, car gets all jittery and "nervous" even at lower speeds when I do.
Car makes 11-12hg vacuum, so there's plenty for it to behave with.
Back to carb - it's even now developed a liking to stalling when I come to a stop, clutch in. I have to catch it with my big toe before it does, then it's fine.
It will rev over 5kRPM idling.
I swear, it almost acts like the secondaries aren't opening, but they're free and not binding and the carb is damn near new; I bought it new myself.
Never seen this behavior in a 3310 and I've had several of them.
Too bad the thing is out of warranty or I'd swap it.

- - - Updated - - -

There great guys, ask him about the carbs he has on special or building you a rebuilt specifically for your engine. It doesnt get easier than having a carb shipped to you that has already been ran on the dyno on an engine similar to yours, tuned for your engine. Or send him your carb, have him check it out, build it and tune it for your motor...

You wont be sorry...

I'm gonna start out seeing if he can just offer his expertise. Something like "440, stock magnum internals, cam is one step up from stock, vacuum 11-12hg at idle, what jets and power valve?"
There really isn't much else to change on this 3310, since the secondaries are a simple metering plate, not adjustable except for the spring in the diaphragm - which I haven't touched. Haven't even opened the diaphragm up.

- - - Updated - - -

You know, it occurs to me that with the headers and 3" exhaust all the way back, could this thing STILL be lean, even though the fumes will run you out of the garage when idling? Current jets are 75.

 

[747mopar]

The stalling when coming to a stop sounds like heat releted issues, mine was doing the same thing but insulating the fuel line and adding a phenolic spacer seamed to put it in check. To check your vacuum sec put a paper clip on the diaphragm rod against the housing, if it's working the paper clip will be slid down the shaft however far it opened. Man sounds like my motor all over again but I found mine to be timing related, mine would break up as well and found that it likes 36 degrees locked in. Been running it for 5,000 miles this way. Good luck

 

[moparedtn]

The stalling when coming to a stop sounds like heat releted issues, mine was doing the same thing but insulating the fuel line and adding a phenolic spacer seamed to put it in check. To check your vacuum sec put a paper clip on the diaphragm rod against the housing, if it's working the paper clip will be slid down the shaft however far it opened. Man sounds like my motor all over again but I found mine to be timing related, mine would break up as well and found that it likes 36 degrees locked in. Been running it for 5,000 miles this way. Good luck

Yeah, especially when coming down off highway speeds, the thing acts like it needs to catch its' breath.
I attribute it to the gas I'm getting, even though it's supposedly "ethanol free".
The moment I catch it and blip it one time, it settles right down to a normal idle.

I do have to clear its' throat one time before pulling back out in first gear, though. Otherwise, it stumbles a little.
Might not have the accelerator pump set just right - I like to keep it a hair loose, better than it being too tight and actually pumping during closed throttle I figure.

The low speed throttle response is typical trademark Holley sharp. If I blip the throttle at low RPM while moving, it jumps instantly. Very crisp, so I figure the accelerator pump is close enough.

I installed the famous "hemi fuel pump", i.e. the rebuildable Carter from Mancini, in case the thing was starving on high end. All that got me was a stuck front float that flooded the dang engine one time, so I pulled over and beat the front bowl to death with the valve cover breather.
That cured it.
Figured some trash from having everything apart got up in there from the increased flow of the pump stirring something up. Hasn't done it since.
Hell, everything in the fuel system is new.

Bottom line is this carb came out of the box misbehaving from the get-go, which I've never seen a 3310 do.
I would have turned it back in under warranty, but gave it a break because I knew the cam in the motor at the time (a purpleshaft that wound up with 3 wiped lobes) was not right, either.
Then I got cancer for the 3rd time and didn't touch the car for a while...
once it was evident I was gonna live, it was way down the road and warranty was gone, so opportunity missed.

I appreciate the good wishes.

So....anybody have an opinion on the Carter I linked to above?

- - - Updated - - -

There great guys, ask him about the carbs he has on special or building you a rebuilt specifically for your engine. It doesnt get easier than having a carb shipped to you that has already been ran on the dyno on an engine similar to yours, tuned for your engine. Or send him your carb, have him check it out, build it and tune it for your motor...

You wont be sorry...

I left him a voice mail, hope he calls back.
UPDATE: He called back promptly. Basically, he said the 3310 is an excellent choice for a stock 440. He did bring up a couple things to check, though, that I hadn't thought of at all:
a. check wiring on the coil - according to him, if the coil wires are backwards, the engine will run normally until you put a load on it in higher RPM ranges, when it will start breaking up.
You know, I've never checked the coil wiring from the previous owner....
b. He says to remove the check ball from the secondary diaphragm, which causes delay (or maybe even prevents) the secondaries from kicking in, especially if it's stuck.
Again, I've never checked that.
Hmmm....

 

[SlinktRR]

When an engine literally runs out of carburetion during a pull, what behavior is exhibited?
Say the carb is too small or under-jetted or such and you're up in the RPMs running with the accelerator floored, what does the engine act like when it simply runs too lean to go further?

Too small = when cresting like 4800rpm feels like you are driving into a hurricane and the tach starts to move very slow, vacuum goes above 1" (should be 0 at WOT), the engine is racing but you arent going any faster. Same thing can happen with an ECU or ignition that is acting up
Too lean = surge and stutter at full or part throttle, feels like running out of gas, stall at lights, tends to overheat, clothes smell like hell from lean misfire
Too rich = gets up and moves but flat acceleration, loads up intake at lights and can stall, bogs at on/off throttle transitions, fouls plugs, raw fuel smell in exhaust

Best way to check jetting is go wide open for a stretch then pull over and check plugs for color.

 

[AMX364]

Sorry people but I will ask a really stupid question. Are you positive the issue is the carb? A LOT of people have spent a LOT of time trying to fix a ignition problem with a carburetor problem. And todays gas does not make it easier to figure out. Good luck with your car.

 

[lewtot184]

i haven't read thru all this stuff, but has a basic fuel pressure check been done?

 

[moparedtn]

i haven't read thru all this stuff, but has a basic fuel pressure check been done?

It's done this with both a new 440 fuel pump and the current brand new (from Mancini) Carter "hemi" high volume rebuildable pump.
The rest of the fuel system, all the way to the tank and pickup, are new as well.
Figured that eliminated fuel pressure as a possibility.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I can rule out the wiring on the ignition coil. It's wired exactly as the diagram for the electronic ignition conversion kit requires, as cross-checked with the factory wiring diagram.
So much for an easy fix...

Will one of you carburetor/Carter experts PLEASE check out the carburetor I've linked to above that's for sale?
Thanks!

 

[lewtot184]

It's done this with both a new 440 fuel pump and the current brand new (from Mancini) Carter "hemi" high volume rebuildable pump.
The rest of the fuel system, all the way to the tank and pickup, are new as well.
Figured that eliminated fuel pressure as a possibility.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I can rule out the wiring on the ignition coil. It's wired exactly as the diagram for the electronic ignition conversion kit requires, as cross-checked with the factory wiring diagram.
So much for an easy fix...

Will one of you carburetor/Carter experts PLEASE check out the carburetor I've linked to above that's for sale?
Thanks!

did you check the length of the fuel pump push rod?

 

[moparedtn]

Sorry people but I will ask a really stupid question. Are you positive the issue is the carb? A LOT of people have spent a LOT of time trying to fix a ignition problem with a carburetor problem. And todays gas does not make it easier to figure out. Good luck with your car.

Feel free to see the number of earlier related threads I've had on this issue, such as the recent "I've had enough of this Mopar Performance Electronic Distributor" one.
The ignition has been beat to death on it, literally.
Current situation, to get it running as well as it is now, is I've retarded the timing all the way back to 0*TDC and the vacuum advance is disconnected.
This, with a full Mopar electronic ignition kit that was installed new (by the previous owner) 4 years ago. The car doesn't even have 300 miles since then, so we can pretty much call the ignition new.
The coil is also brand new, an MSD unit in this case.
Setting timing remains best done by holding the engine speed at approx. 3500RPM and dialing in the distributor for smoothest running at that speed....
but just so you know, the other part of my frustration entails replacing said new distributor with a new stock electronic one, if for any other reason process of elimination.

Logically... if the engine is damn near stock and rebuilt, the ignition is damn near stock and the carb is damn near stock, the thing ought to tune and RUN like a damn near stock unit.
If I can get to that point, then we'll start talking about upgrading again.

Right now, it behaving like a stock 440 WOULD be an upgrade.

- - - Updated - - -

did you check the length of the fuel pump push rod?

Aha!
Brand new one from Mancini. I've still got the old one on my desk.

 

[rumblefish360]

IMO, if your going to give the Edelbrock a try, use the 800 AVS. The secondary adjustable air door is a nice plus. The extra 50 cfm's will not hurt.

 

[moparedtn]

IMO, if your going to give the Edelbrock a try, use the 800 AVS. The secondary adjustable air door is a nice plus. The extra 50 cfm's will not hurt.

Another vote for the Thunder, thanks.
It appears it's down to either a nice original Carter AVS or the Edelbrock Thunder AVS, then.
If I do this, the Holley, original box and all, will be for sale. What should I ask for it? It's clean as a whistle.

 

[Seventy]

Another vote for the Thunder, thanks.
It appears it's down to either a nice original Carter AVS or the Edelbrock Thunder AVS, then.
If I do this, the Holley, original box and all, will be for sale. What should I ask for it? It's clean as a whistle.

except for the air cleaner beating and it not working right, lol... Just kidding, I would think $150ish

 

[moparedtn]

except for the air cleaner beating and it not working right, lol... Just kidding, I would think $150ish

OH man LOL!
The breather took the brunt of that one. Got some little dents in that original part now...