440 rebuild

[Artis]

Hello guys!

Started to rebuild my 440 engine.
In the beginning plan was simple - change couple of gaskets, oil pump, piston rings, bearings etc, After some measurements block needs overbore and camshaft needs to be changed.
We all know - stock is boring so what would be the best to do?
High-compression pistons (what compression/manufacturer)? camshaft?
Heads I want to keep original.
Thanks

A.

 

[SimDog]

Stay under 10:1 if you are going to run pump gas. Keith Black and Speed Pro make some nice forged pistons. I went with Speed Pro because of cost savings.Cam choice will depend on your setup...Auto/Manual transmission, rear end gear ratio and how you plan to drive the car. And of course budget is always a factor.

 

[Wietse]

I was under the impression to stay away from forged pistons if not for racing/drag applications due to excessive "piston slap" when not under high loads and temperatures.
A good porting job on the heads will improve flow, no big gaines compared to aftermarket heads i guess but every little helps.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

Hello guys!

Started to rebuild my 440 engine.
In the beginning plan was simple - change couple of gaskets, oil pump, piston rings, bearings etc, After some measurements block needs overbore and camshaft needs to be changed.
We all know - stock is boring so what would be the best to do?
High-compression pistons (what compression/manufacturer)? camshaft?
Heads I want to keep original.
Thanks

A.

When I was street racing in high school, my first machinist ask me an important question while building my first engine....."Hey kid, how fast do you want to spend?" Words to live by. So, question #1, how fast do YOU want to spend? Question #2, what do YOU want to do with the car when you're done? (and a little tip on #2, you cannot run 9-second quarter miles, corner like a Porsche 911, and get good gas mileage....you for the most part, you can only pick one).

 

[PurpleBeeper]

I was under the impression to stay away from forged pistons if not for racing/drag applications due to excessive "piston slap" when not under high loads and temperatures.

I would agree with this for 2618 aluminum forged pistons. There's another alloy out there that most forged pistons are now made of that has less of this problem (less "slap") and cast/hypereutectic pistons have the best piston/cylinder seal (least "slap"). 95% of all engines don't need forged pistons.

 

[lewtot184]

piston slap doesn't have anything to do with forged or cast. it is directly related to straight or offset pins, piston material, clearances and skirt design. piston slap is an issue if doesn't shut up when the engine gets warmed up. piston noise when the engine is cold, but ceases as water temps come up really isn't bad. the real deal is pump gas, race gas or blend; what do you want? combustion chamber design will dictate the type of piston for an efficient engine.

 

[lewtot184]

I was under the impression to stay away from forged pistons if not for racing/drag applications due to excessive "piston slap" when not under high loads and temperatures.

I would agree with this for 2618 aluminum forged pistons. There's another alloy out there that most forged pistons are now made of that has less of this problem (less "slap") and cast/hypereutectic pistons have the best piston/cylinder seal (least "slap"). 95% of all engines don't need forged pistons.

I run some 2618's that will scare you when cold,..lol. but they shut up as the temps rise. don't get overly lost in piston slap when the engine is cold.

 

[wyrmrider]

did you measure how far down your pistons were at all 4 corners before removing pistons and rods (deck height)?
what heads do you have and what are you planning on using
bore as little as possible .020 if you can find pistons that size (stock 400 bore size)
is this a cast or forged crank motor? what year
and the ususal trans, gear ratio etc info-
headers or stock manifolds etc
do not think of a camshft thill you work out compression and pistons and carb and manifold and headers or not etc
compression/ pistons will be different for cast iron and aluminum heads
have you priced guides and seats (if not a 452 casting) new springs etc vs new AL heads?
measure twice- cut once

 

[PurpleBeeper]

I run some 2618's that will scare you when cold,..lol. but they shut up as the temps rise. don't get overly lost in piston slap when the engine is cold.

Yes, my current motor has old-school 2618 pistons & it is REALLY loud when you fire it up cold....like you've bent a pushrod. The same machinist who asked me "how fast do you want to spend?" was the guy that bored this block and told me I had .008" piston to wall clearance & that 2618 aluminum expands a lot when heated....requiring more piston/wall clearance.....which caused the "slap". I mean, I don't know this, it is what I was told many years ago.

 

[not so famous bob]

Yes, my current motor has old-school 2618 pistons & it is REALLY loud when you fire it up cold....like you've bent a pushrod. The same machinist who asked me "how fast do you want to spend?" was the guy that bored this block and told me I had .008" piston to wall clearance & that 2618 aluminum expands a lot when heated....requiring more piston/wall clearance.....which caused the "slap". I mean, I don't know this, it is what I was told many years ago.

I have 10.3 to 1 icon forged pistons in my 440/505, (alum. heads) , no piston slap. piston material has come a long way. u guys are worrying about something that is non existant now, as long as u follow the piston makers directions.
I have run forged pistons in all my hotrods except one !

 

[Wietse]

I have 10.3 to 1 icon forged pistons in my 440/505, (alum. heads) , no piston slap. piston material has come a long way. u guys are worrying about something that is non existant now, as long as u follow the piston makers directions.
I have run forged pistons in all my hotrods except one !

I did read this issue in a older article indeed, can't find anymore where i read this at the moment...
Them days this issue was there, guess with modern technology and materials it is something that can be ruled out.
It did mention 3 different options for replacement pistons, a stock type material, some sort of alloy that was still good to use on street cars and the last option being forged piston which were only recommended for racing applications.
Anyway, good to gain some heads up!

 

[lewtot184]

Yes, my current motor has old-school 2618 pistons & it is REALLY loud when you fire it up cold....like you've bent a pushrod. The same machinist who asked me "how fast do you want to spend?" was the guy that bored this block and told me I had .008" piston to wall clearance & that 2618 aluminum expands a lot when heated....requiring more piston/wall clearance.....which caused the "slap". I mean, I don't know this, it is what I was told many years ago.

the 2618 will expand more, but the drilled oil ring groove (which transfers more heat to the skirt, which requires looser clearances), and the straight pin location are noise makers. .008" is probably a little loose for those pistons.

 

[lewtot184]

there isn't any modern design or material that will eliminate slap on a performance piston. it's a nature of the beast.

 

[wyrmrider]

Correct but were not using Fordgedtrues any more .008 is a bunch except for maybe ______ insert power adder here

 

[lewtot184]

Correct but were not using Fordgedtrues any more .008 is a bunch except for maybe ______ insert power adder here

some race clearances were .010", so .008" wouldn't be excessive for a strip engine. I just prefer to lean toward the tighter of the recommended clearances for a street engine. a lot depends on the piston design and material.

 

[wyrmrider]

We did not use that much clearance on the first 3 3/4 +.010 210 inch Rambler Indy twin turbo motor Fordgetrues 50 lbs of boost on alcohol with BBC pins- they bent and kicked out the spirolocks- for a quick fix we went to pressed pins
later changed to Brooks Pistons with top Fuel Hemi Pins both on Carrillo rods looked sorta funny with that big pin and small piston but it worked
Pre warmed the motor before lighting it off
But I've run more clearance on loose strip rebuilds- knurled the non thrust side of the pistons

 

[miller]

How the heck did all this lead to forged pistons, for a simple overhaul?
Just use a good flat top piston, valve reliefs, if needed, how much the piston is in the hole, what compression ratio you want, with the smallest oversize you can go with...to save meat in the block.

 

[miller]

In the beginning plan was simple -

On my 69 HP 440, I used Keith Black SilverLites +.020. .002 in the hole, .0025 clearance, .028 steel head gaskets, and a hair over 10-1 compression.

Simple overhaul? There's ONLY one way to overhaul...(for what that's worth)

 

[wyrmrider]

what part number?
no such branding by United as "Keith Black SilverLites" The Silvolites are usually "compensated" down about .015
were these the hyperutectic pistons?

 

[IQ52]

Gotta ask. Why do you want to keep the heads original? I'll just listen to the answer and be quiet.