400 Block 512 Stroker V.s 440 Block 512 Stroker

[Blackcoronet440]

Hello, I just recently Blew my 440 to pieces at the track. here is (was) the setup I had going

'66 Coronet440 Full interior car no cage

440 ci .60 over
Forged Aluminum speed pro pistons 10.5: 1 with the RPM's
Stock Rods
Steel Crank
RPM Heads Fully ported/Victor intake
.590 Purple shaft
2" Hooker headers
MP distributor with Chrome Box
727 3500 10" stall 4.56 Gears

Car turned 11.60's @115mph

Now I am looking to build a Motor that's is just as fast if not faster. BUT stronger and lighter internals. Same top end new custom grind solid cam shaft. I have been leaning on the 400 Stroker motor Mainly Because I hear they all screamers! Plus with the added cubes of the stroker I wont have to worry about low end grunt. This motor will be used on the street lightly. (Burger joints, Cruise inns, Car shows and a stop light to stop light Pony Car bruiser) I still need it reliable (Last for a number of years). My last motor ran hard up until it went for 9 years. I know that the 400 will cost a bit more to build as far as buying a new intake that will fit and Distributor. That is the least of my worries. The one thing that bugs me is how short the pistons are in the 400/512 stroker kit. I worry about Piston rock in the cylinders hens lowering the drivabilty and reliability on the street.

I would like some feedback as to if this make sense to do or would going back to a 440/512 kit be better??

Also for info on the stroker kits I have been researching here is a link

http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htm

Thanks for the input

 

[robinsonwr]

Personally I like the 440/512 for that particlar reason, compression heigth. The 4.25 stroke with 7.1 rod is a great package. The compression heigth is 1.480-1.485 depending on piston manufacturer. I also opted for the 2.20 rod journals which allow you to .001 over and under bearings to create the correct oil clearance. I chose more compression heigth because my build will spend alot of time on the street. A purpose built race car may want to maximize the loss of reciprocating weight. If I had a 440 and accessories to support that build I would definately go 440/512. In the case of purpose built race car with weight savings on the reciprocating mass I would go 440/512 with aluminum rods, Ha-hahahahaha.

 

[Blackcoronet440]

The Compression Height is much better in the 440/512 v.s the 400/512 for pump gas on the street. Also the 7.100 rod will give this motor a hell of a lot torque!! So f I could get a different piston to lower the overall Compression of the 400 Block Kit do you think it would be just as worthy on the street as the 440?

 

[m79ded]

My opinion do the 440/512 much more reliable due to comp height. With 400/512 you will get piston rock because of really short pistons, heard a few of them and they sound like a really bad case of piston slap. Also due to the rod angle because you will use shorter rods in 400/512 it has a tendency to push into the cylinder walls on the thrust side which wears out the engine quicker as well as building more heat.

The benefits of the 400/512 is it's lighter as well as quicker reving because of smaller mains. Cylinder fills quicker with shorter rod ratio as well.

 

[Cranky]

A buddy and I ran a car back in the early 80's with a combo similar to your original. Same cam, but stock ported 906's (Eddy heads didn't exist back then), prepped 6 pack rods, TRW popups with around 11.5-1, 4.88's and a 4 speed. Launched at 6k shifting at 6800 and was in a 69 road runner that was right around 3000 lbs. What failed on yours?

 

[Mr B Body]

Build the 440. Go ahead and make it a 520 (4.375" stroke). My brother's Roadrunner has a 520 shortblock from Muscle Motors and 440 source Steath heads (CNC ported by Modern Cylinder head) and it runs 11.40's all day long with a weight of over 4000 lbs. .590 MP solid cam, RAS rockers 2" Hooker Super Comps, Holley Street Dominator Intake and a Holley 950 HP. 727 with 3800 rpm Dynamic converter with 3.91 gears. Trap speed is at 122 to 123 mph. This is a true street car (has over 4k miles on it) without an optimised suspension (super stock springs). The engine looks a stock engine with headers. It just make 495 rwhp after some tuning.

 

[womanator]

I went the 440-512 combo.
It went in my 67 Charger.
Car has run a best of 11.86 with 1.63 60 ft times.
There's a lot more in it,I just have to pay more attention to it.
This engine has 440 source rotating bottom end.
Eldelbrock stock 84 cc heads.
Source rockers that are noisey.

 

[benno440]

didnt even break 500 hp with a 520 ???? sounds weird to me, i have a 505 stroker with source heads they told me should make 620 hp with the setup i have and just under 700 tq

 

[womanator]

Mr B Body.
4000lbs 123 mph in the 1/4 equates 570 rwhp.
With that kind of speed you should be doing about 10.8 or 9's.
Must be spinning off the line.

 

[robinsonwr]

Mr B Body.
4000lbs 123 mph in the 1/4 equates 570 rwhp.
With that kind of speed you should be doing about 10.8 or 9's.
Must be spinning off the line.

Womanator,
You are correct horsepower and MPH are direct calculations of one another. Most street cars are over compensated under the hood to make up for poor suspension set up. I think it should have plenty left in it if with that MPH. It sure is cool to have a wild street ride though. Makes you feel like your on the edge.

 

[Blackcoronet440]

A buddy and I ran a car back in the early 80's with a combo similar to your original. Same cam, but stock ported 906's (Eddy heads didn't exist back then), prepped 6 pack rods, TRW popups with around 11.5-1, 4.88's and a 4 speed. Launched at 6k shifting at 6800 and was in a 69 road runner that was right around 3000 lbs. What failed on yours?

#3 Rod Catastrophic Failure

What we think happened after pulling the motor apart is a couple things....

1.I was running the car to lean. 850 Demon. Jets 89 primary 93 second. Altitude 2900 ft.
2.The number 3/4 journal you can clearly see major scoring and Discoloration. Maybe spun Bearing.. But the Spark plug porcelain is blown out with no damage to the electrode. Even the tip of the plug blow off in the wire! Detonation.

3.Now here is what gets me... Could I have had a spun Bearing for some time and not heard it due to open headers? Could that have caused detonation? Only one can speculate... UGGGHHHH!

4. Over rev. The trans has had some difficulties shifting from 2nd to 3rd in recent history. I did not have a finger on the pulse of the RPM's That race. Cant remember what RPM I was at when the motor let go. (If I had only bought that GoPro I would have had an on board camera to give me some Clues...)

- - - Updated - - -

I went the 440-512 combo.
It went in my 67 Charger.
Car has run a best of 11.86 with 1.63 60 ft times.
There's a lot more in it,I just have to pay more attention to it.
This engine has 440 source rotating bottom end.
Eldelbrock stock 84 cc heads.
Source rockers that are noisey.

Very Nice! Looks alot like mine.... Did.. how did the 440 Source kit install in the motor? Lots Of Machining? I hear the 512 kit needs little to no mods on the block..

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you Everybody for the input This Definitely helps my decision and sways me; Once again in the other direction... Sounds like the 400 Block is what Single purpose race cars are using these days. 440 is sounding like the "ALL AROUND" Winner...

 

[Mr B Body]

Mr B Body.
4000lbs 123 mph in the 1/4 equates 570 rwhp.
With that kind of speed you should be doing about 10.8 or 9's.
Must be spinning off the line.

I agree with everything you say except for 570 RWHP (flywheel HP is between 575-600 roughly.), but anyways the car will not 60 foot for anything, it will spin. It really needs better rear suspension.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

400 block all the way. shorter deck = a stiffer block & better header clearance. smaller main = less bearing speed and makes the mains a little more beefy. 0.020 bigger bore = better air flow. yea the cd on the piston is a little short, but it really doesn't seem to be a issue. i use to build alot of ford stroker engines, you should see the pistons in a 347 storker... but they always lived fine.

i've built a hand full of 500 in mopars, one being a 400 block out of my dads cordoba, now 499 4.150 stroke. its in my buddies 69 Dart and runs like a raped ape. its a good motor but nothing real radical (it see's way more street duty than strip). its made me a believer in 400's. its only been to the track a few times, last time out it was running 10.0's spinning @ 136.

 

[Blackcoronet440]

wow very nice... is that Girdle set up from 440 source? What stroker did you use? do you have to run an external oil pickup?

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

girdle was from hughes. 440 storker kit, needed a little work on the pin fit and rod side clearance. pretty nice kit for the price. we ran a external set up on it, just for the intended use. A internal pick up would have worked, i ran a 1/2 internal with a 4.15 crank before without issues, think i had to add a small dent in it. i just prefer the external set up's on a serious performance engine.

a little ride along when we first got it going

http://youtu.be/buCVoeyv1TI

 

[451Mopar]

Either 400 or 440 block will work. I would not worry about the rod ratio or piston compression height too much if RPM is under 7,000.
There seems to be a larger selection of intake manifolds for the 440, than the 400 if that makes a difference. The 400 does allow a bit more room for the headers and getting to the spark plugs than the 440.
I prefer the longer rod setups as it helps when the heads are a bit undersized for the engine.
I currently have two strokers, a 400 based 4.15" stroke 499/500 cid with really short (and light)flat top pistons with 12.4:1 compression, a decent sized (0.700+") solid roller cam and max wedge port size Victor heads with an Indy single plane (about the only low deck intake for max wedge port heads). It also has the BCR aluminum main caps and 1/2" thick main girdle. This engine is built to rev 7,000+, and I really don't need any more low end torque as the car is already hard to hook up.
The second engine is a 440 with the 4.25" stroke, 7.1" rods, and dished pistons (10.3:1 compression) with stealth heads. This is setup as a street driver and might see 6,000 RPM maximum when it hits the rev-limiter. It has a hydraulic roller cam, and performer RPM intake. It makes a ton of torque, but my mild heads/cam/intake/carb limit peak power. Because I am not pushing the stroked 440 very hard (under 600 HP), I am just using the stock main caps with ARP studs

 

[Blackcoronet440]

girdle was from hughes. 440 storker kit, needed a little work on the pin fit and rod side clearance. pretty nice kit for the price. we ran a external set up on it, just for the intended use. A internal pick up would have worked, i ran a 1/2 internal with a 4.15 crank before without issues, think i had to add a small dent in it. i just prefer the external set up's on a serious performance engine.

a little ride along when we first got it going

http://youtu.be/buCVoeyv1TI

That thing is sick. Period. But Question. Is that motor every bit as streetable as what I want to build with the 400? I don't want a race car. I want a scary fast Street car. should I ran a Girdle setup and Steel billet caps just for insurance. I expect to run 7200 at the track.. Can the stroker take that much? either motor 440 or 400?

- - - Updated - - -

Either 400 or 440 block will work. I would not worry about the rod ratio or piston compression height too much if RPM is under 7,000.
There seems to be a larger selection of intake manifolds for the 440, than the 400 if that makes a difference. The 400 does allow a bit more room for the headers and getting to the spark plugs than the 440.
I prefer the longer rod setups as it helps when the heads are a bit undersized for the engine.
I currently have two strokers, a 400 based 4.15" stroke 499/500 cid with really short (and light)flat top pistons with 12.4:1 compression, a decent sized (0.700+") solid roller cam and max wedge port size Victor heads with an Indy single plane (about the only low deck intake for max wedge port heads). It also has the BCR aluminum main caps and 1/2" thick main girdle. This engine is built to rev 7,000+, and I really don't need any more low end torque as the car is already hard to hook up.
The second engine is a 440 with the 4.25" stroke, 7.1" rods, and dished pistons (10.3:1 compression) with stealth heads. This is setup as a street driver and might see 6,000 RPM maximum when it hits the rev-limiter. It has a hydraulic roller cam, and performer RPM intake. It makes a ton of torque, but my mild heads/cam/intake/carb limit peak power. Because I am not pushing the stroked 440 very hard (under 600 HP), I am just using the stock main caps with ARP studs

I just want to make sure I am not crossing the line of building an unstreetable High compression Race motor with the 400. Seems easier to build a 440 for the street and track. But I love the Idea of having 400/512 Screamer. Not to worried about head flow. I have fully ported RPM's. I know they are not victors but hey!! I got them for cheap. Also the 400 offers an all around higher package. 50 Lbs off the nose and a lighter rotating Assembly. Lighter means more power and less wear on the rods and journals.. Just nervous with the overall length of the piston.. Don't want piston slap or like m79ded said,

"due to the rod angle because you will use shorter rods in 400/512 it has a tendency to push into the cylinder walls on the thrust side which wears out the engine quicker as well as building more heat".

Longevity is also a factor here too... Not made of money rightnow.... Any way Thanks for all the help!! It is definitely needed and appreciated!!!

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

with either 512 combo and RPM heads its not going to want to turn 7200 (or it will be less than ideal for power). that 400/499 Et's just as fast shifting it around 6500 and thats with a max wedge port. your going to want to pick a camshaft that'll compliment the heads and the desired RPM range that is also street friendly. with good rocker you can run around .650 lift reliably. duration is pretty easy to get carried away on, the bigger cubes will eat it up some. i'd probably be inclined to stay in the low 260-270 range depending on your compresson/convertor/gear/ and car wight. i also light to keep the lobe separation a little wider on a street car. 110 works pretty well, still gives you pretty good idle quality. im guessing your planning on running a solid. flat tappet or roller? your not going to be disappointed with either block, you'll probably get longer ring life out of the 440 block. is it enough to worry about. that'll have to be your decision. you'll be fine with a girdle and stock caps on either one. i have a 440/493 sitting on the floor i built for my pop's RR. nothing wrong with that. Just for any future builds for me i lean towards the 400 block . Personal preference. i wouldn't be too worried about the rod ratio, its not that bad. if Longevity is your ultimate goal probably the 440 block might be right for you. plus you already have some parts that way. like mentioned above, either will run!!

 

[451Mopar]

Question, what do you mean by fully ported RPM heads? Is this still the stock intake port size, or has the port size been made larger like a max wedge? How much do the heads flow?
Also, what is your target power and RPM level?
Do you plan to use an internal or external oil pickup?
What intake and carb do you plan to use?

The 512 stroker in the 440 is pretty easy for clearance, just needed to take a small amount off the oil pickup boss, no cylinder notching was needed. I used a 1/2" internal oil pickup with no problem. The 499 stroker 400 was the same, no bore clearance needed, only the oil boss, 1/2" internal oil pickup. I thought the 400 block is slightly smaller in the crankcase area?, so I don't know how much clearancing would be needed with the 4.25" crank vs the 4.15"?
On the other hand, if using an external oil pickup, you could go with an even larger stroke crank.
If you plan on more than 650+ HP, you may want to use a dominator 4500 style carb and intake manifold.

 

[Blackcoronet440]

Question, what do you mean by fully ported RPM heads? Is this still the stock intake port size, or has the port size been made larger like a max wedge? How much do the heads flow?
Also, what is your target power and RPM level?
Do you plan to use an internal or external oil pickup?
What intake and carb do you plan to use?

The 512 stroker in the 440 is pretty easy for clearance, just needed to take a small amount off the oil pickup boss, no cylinder notching was needed. I used a 1/2" internal oil pickup with no problem. The 499 stroker 400 was the same, no bore clearance needed, only the oil boss, 1/2" internal oil pickup. I thought the 400 block is slightly smaller in the crankcase area?, so I don't know how much clearancing would be needed with the 4.25" crank vs the 4.15"?
On the other hand, if using an external oil pickup, you could go with an even larger stroke crank.
If you plan on more than 650+ HP, you may want to use a dominator 4500 style carb and intake manifold.

Ok the Heads have been worked. Extensively. Over sized valves and a port matched Victor intake. 850 Demon. They flow just over 320. These are the 88cc Heads. I dont plan on using the external oil setup. The one I have is fine. Try to keep cost down... I plan to use a victor style intake again for the 400 and the MP Distributor and chrome box. Also 10.5:1 more more then 11:1. Also I feel 512 is plenty of cubes considering I don't have to machine much out of the block with this kit.


I would like to be able to turn the motor (safely) without being on the ragged edge of Grenading to 7200. However if the motor makes just as must power at 6800 fine. I can't tell you how much H.P I want, Because I have no baseline H.p to work with. My first thread on here has the combo I was running to product 11.60's at the track. I just want a motor that can hadle weekend street abuse and run 11.30's in the 1/4 maybe 10.90's on the bottle!..
I dont plan on using the external oil setup. The one I have is fine. Try to keep cost down... I plan to use a victor style intake again for the 400 and the MP Distributor and chrome box. Also 10.5:1 more more then 11:1. Also I feel 512 is plenty of cubes considering I don't have to machine much out of the block with this kit.

I don't know how to Add Pics to threads... I will include a pic of the heads when I figure it out..