440 How would you build for 700hp

[PRHeads]

I like actual #s from local repeatable reliable dynos.

Agreed.

But after you’ve handed over the dyno sheet, and then asked, “what do you think it will run?”........ that’s how I come up with an answer.

 

[Hemirunner]

Not exactly fresh off the dyno as it was 14 years ago...
446ci
Diamond 52002 flat tops
Indy SR heads CNC’d by Modern Cylinder Head [email protected] Int
/[email protected] Ex
Comp solid roller 269/280@050
.800 lift Int/.726 Ex
Super victor intake and a 4150 1050cfm carb
If only I knew then what I know now.

 

[440rb]

There's k2surfer, it was mentioned that he's making 519 hp to go 121mph....
There's challenger340 , describing a nice street 440 build (great thread) making 500hp ..
So what we're left with is the feeling that RV 440s with 274 cams are interchangeable with 500+ in indy headed crossrammed 10 sec motors.

No they are not interchangeable at all. The street 500hp motor with a 274 cam was probably dyno hp and I bet it had very good heads on it that flowed big at the low lift of that cam. Take that motor and put it in a car with a known weight and all ancillaries and get it to hook and you can work out the fwhp it made on track on that day with that tune in it under those conditions for the mph it ran, its not going to be 500hp because of too many variables, gearing/tyre size/converter/60ft and whether they are all in line with the motors rpm range of making its max power in a 1/4 mile. If all the parameters like ET/mph are in line and it consistently ran the same then you can work out its on track hp output much like surfers combo.

He has a motor that in essence should be making around 600hp as I see it with that spec but we know there's something up as the 118psi cranking comp is way low. But as his mph/et is much in line and consistent apart from the 60ft which is quicker for the et we can determine the actual hp it took to run the mph which in this case was approx 519fwhp. Thats what it took for that car to run 121mph in that weight of car on that day with that tune and chassis set up. Its potential is much better with that spec without whatever is wrong.

Dyno's are a tuning tool really which are used to determine converter choice etc etc.... yes there are accurate ones like the one our big wedge went on (EDA), our car ran spot on with wallace's calcs from the dyno no's and gave us a good accurate example to determine gear/tyre size with known hp/weight for a given desired ET/rpm@stripe. I used it to advise my mate to buy the complete motor in the first place to achieve what he wanted the car to run which its exceeded by almost 2 10ths currently.

 

[66Satellite47]

Yes, like I've said, the dyno numbers are one thing, the track number is another.

 

[RemCharger]

Take 2 hemi rams, 1 with a 6 speed, one with an 8 speed. The 8 speed outruns the 6, proving that the 8 speed one develops more hp, despite actually making the exact same horsepower.
The logic is good.

 

[66Satellite47]

Sarcasm I presume.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I'd love to hear a "440" at 7k RPMs...
That's BADASS!
Granted, I'm thinking cubes at 572 and focusing on wide strong torque is best for my application, I still have great admiration and respect for a 440 spinning at 7k!

 

[66Satellite47]

I'd love to hear a "440" at 7k RPMs...
That's BADASS!
Granted, I'm thinking cubes at 572 and focusing on wide strong torque is best for my application, I still have great admiration and respect for a 440 spinning at 7k!

You would have liked my 1st 400/452 at 7200 to 7400 with the open headers.

 

[RemCharger]

You would have liked my 1st 400/452 at 7200 to 7400 with the open headers.

That's where I was at with my little 383 until it got the dreaded "crumbly crank"

 

[biomedtechguy]

You would have liked my 1st 400/452 at 7200 to 7400 with the open headers.

ESPECIALLY if it was "dressed" as a hopped up 383! I believe the Mopar 383 doesn't get enough props for what it is, was, and its potential, part of that could be the "hotter" 396 engines but that wasn't a level playing field, what with the "other" engine having solid lifters and aluminum parts.
BUT
My forever Mopar birth came about in a 69 Roadrunner with a stock HP 383, and my buddy's 70 4 speed 383 w/basic mods (cam, intake, carb, headers, and GEARS) and it was a blast on the street back in the late 70 and early 80s.
A 400 stroker played off as a "hot 383" would definitely bring me joy as it crushed and took money off the "other guys"...

That's where I was at with my little 383 until it got the dreaded "crumbly crank"

I'm not exactly sure what you mean?

 

[RemCharger]

ESPECIALLY if it was "dressed" as a hopped up 383! I believe the Mopar 383 doesn't get enough props for what it is, was, and its potential, part of that could be the "hotter" 396 engines but that wasn't a level playing field, what with the "other" engine having solid lifters and aluminum parts.
BUT
My forever Mopar birth came about in a 69 Roadrunner with a stock HP 383, and my buddy's 70 4 speed 383 w/basic mods (cam, intake, carb, headers, and GEARS) and it was a blast on the street back in the late 70 and early 80s.
A 400 stroker played off as a "hot 383" would definitely bring me joy as it crushed and took money off the "other guys"...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean?

crumbly crank.

 

[66Satellite47]

ESPECIALLY if it was "dressed" as a hopped up 383! I believe the Mopar 383 doesn't get enough props for what it is, was, and its potential, part of that could be the "hotter" 396 engines but that wasn't a level playing field, what with the "other" engine having solid lifters and aluminum parts.
BUT
My forever Mopar birth came about in a 69 Roadrunner with a stock HP 383, and my buddy's 70 4 speed 383 w/basic mods (cam, intake, carb, headers, and GEARS) and it was a blast on the street back in the late 70 and early 80s.
A 400 stroker played off as a "hot 383" would definitely bring me joy as it crushed and took money off the "other guys"...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean?

That's where I was at with my little 383 until it got the dreaded "crumbly crank"

What I think RamCharger was saying is that high RPM's are hard on OEM cranks. At 6200 -6500 RPM seems like an OEM steel crank holds up. At consistent 7000 they get weak. My 1st 400/452 motor with low deck rods saw 7000 shifts & 7000 in the traps. When I put in my Arrow it was 7200 - 7400 until I changed gears. When I took the motor apart a the end of the season, #4 main cap was in 2 pieces. Still running good. But the crank didn't ring like a tuning fork. sounded like a Chev crank. No good. I hope newer aftermarket cranks are much better.

 

[440rb]

I'd love to hear a "440" at 7k RPMs...
That's BADASS!
Granted, I'm thinking cubes at 572 and focusing on wide strong torque is best for my application, I still have great admiration and respect for a 440 spinning at 7k!

Well I gotta tell you something with my 440 6pk bottom end motor and that was when I ran it with a small shot of N20 to run that 9.96 it wasn't a pleasant experience, it turned 7500 at the stripe, (660hp, 6800 NA@530hp), when it got near the stripe the motor was giving out a song that wasn't a nice tune anymore is the only way I can describe it, suffice to say I only did that once. The motor survives to this day albeit with a smaller cam in a Ford Pop I've been told, perhaps the milodon external oil system kept it alive. So when you hit yours with some just take note of the extra rpm you will turn and take it easy.

 

[biomedtechguy]

when you hit yours with some just take note of the extra rpm you will turn and take it easy.

I'm having it ring gapped for a 300 shot.
Bill Mitchell aluminum block, 4 bolt mains, Molnar rods and crank...Diamond forged aluminum pistons, tool steel pins.
No nitrous until I manage the gobs of NA 6bbl power, and see what breaks if anything. I think my weakest link may be the Passon 5 speed, rated "conservatively" for 700 continuous ft lbs torque. The rest of the drivetrain including slip yoke to Dana 60 pinion and driveshaft are all Strange chromoly, and 1320 solid U-joints.
I was told no real detriment to the extra ring gap if I never use nitrous.

 

[440rb]

Well seeing as this is going to be mainly a street cruiser and show car personally I wouldn't do the 300 ring gap but thats just me, it may not be too detrimental with the larger ring gaps but I for one after spending all that money and having a beautiful car hit it with a 300 shot especially not off the line even with a trick clutch tamer as you could buckle the quarters and certainly do some damage to the drivetrain if not the box but I'm not up on the tamer side and its effects, that car is going to be fast enough NA (10.20's or better) once you got a handle on it or with a 150 shot (9.60's) you don't need big r/gaps for that, even feeding it in down the track could be one hell of a drive I reckon. A 9.99 will require a lot more cage etc. etc. as you know. I wouldn't go there but it depends on your quest for the best ET. but after saying all that negative stuff ............................
Have a look at this 1000hp wedge stick car if you've not seen it before>

 

[biomedtechguy]

I will have that talk with my builder one more time. I will focus on the effects of the ring gap, but the last time we talked he assured me of no down side.
He, as many of you are, is a patient man (at least w/me) and a friend. This was the earlier exchange on this topic:
He emailed me the Total Seal ring gap chart. The difference between a 150 and 350 shot is .0010 x bore (4.5")
Me: "What do those gaps translate to in drivability? Fouled plugs or do they just need checking or cleaning more often? Blowby issues? I don't have any idea. I'll let you school me. I'm sure if you thought it would be a problem you'd let me know."
Reply:
"D. none of the above
Over thinking this. factory gaps are set over years testing. open alittle more for safety on poweradder.
Not enough there for blow by and oil issues."
This builder has done a LOT of Mopar stroker race and street/strip engines and quite a few others. At some point I have to say "ok" but always appreciate the forum input.
I know I'm going to need a cage. I'll probably use chromoly when the time comes. In the meantime, I do have the US Cartools subframe connectors and front and rear torque boxes. I would be inconsolable if I buckled a body panel.
Great video! Thanks.
I'm concerned that once I get a handle on the power, get the HitMaster dialed in, traction aids, tire size and type, that I am going to want to compete with my friend (since we were teens) that is running 9.5s at 140 in the 1/4. If I don't have the capability to add nitrous, that won't happen. I'm thinking that it would be frustrating to have a block and engine that can easily handle the power of a properly setup nitrous system and not be able to use it, or have to tear down and regap to add it.
THANK you for your posts!

 

[Hemirunner]

You have to look at the given time that the compression stroke takes vs the leakage that could get through the minuscule gap. It’s a non-consideration at best. Those gaps could be an 1/16” wide and you wouldn’t know the difference power wise.

 

[biomedtechguy]

You have to look at the given time that the compression stroke takes vs the leakage that could get through the minuscule gap. It’s a non-consideration at best. Those gaps could be an 1/16” wide and you wouldn’t know the difference power wise.

Thanks @Hemirunner Your twin turbo Superbird is the ultimate dream car BTW...
I only have one shot at this build, at least that is how I'm approaching it, and although progress is being made, between parts availability and mainly my budget, I have to do it in segments. I also believe I don't have unlimited time. Without being morbid, I am aware of my mortality, having lost several friends in the last few years.
I think I can afford to buy the rest of what I need by the end of summer, and cover labor as well. If I get this done and in by early spring of 2023 I think that is a reasonable goal.
John with Southeast Performance has a lot of experience and a great crew.
Most of all, I trust him, and he is willing and has been working with me. One point I'm adamant about is the B3E valvetrain geometry correction. I also hope they may have TF270s available, if my builder can't get them sooner. Regardless, I told him that was one issue I had to be firm on, and I need him to work with Michael on that. He agreed, although he isn't "bought in" on the tech, once he sees it first hand and goes thru the setup, maybe Michael will have another convert.
@505Coronet Thanks for letting me post off topic in your thread.

 

[440rb]

Ok so now we know, 9.40's it is@142+, thats an honest 900fwhp+ on track and 6800>7k in the traps with a 29" tall tyre/4.10's, open the r/gaps I think you'll need a 250>300 shot bringing it in on a delay timer. All the best Bio.

 

[biomedtechguy]

6800>7k in the traps with a 29" tall tyre/4.10's

I guess those solid roller lifters may come in handy after all...