440 that doesn't want to idle ... Tale as old as time

[BenH]

No worries, I didn't imply it was automatically that way because of a swap meet though, I stated twice in my longer posts that it is an externally balanced crank, and therefore because of that, had a different flex plate, which I mentioned as an important thing to consider since it is a large plate and not what was originally on it, and part of the transmission more than the engine to me.

 

[khryslerkid]

Have you verified the timing mark? Or just set the timing by ear.

You should be able to hold the brakes, put it in gear feathering the gas pedal. Torque converter could be a little tight for that cam but should slip enough to get it rolling. I'm running a stock converter that was behind the original 361. Now 440 with a Sum4601 mild at 466/488 but having a higher stall would only be beneficial when doing a hole shot. It's fine as a cruiser.

 

[Geoff 2]

What exactly is the issue that you are having?

 

[Wietse]

My 440 does exactly the same, i went from a stock-ish converter to a Hughes Performance 3000 stall converter and has not given me much improvement, if any at all.
Mine is idling at 950 rpm in P, drops to 850-ish in Drive.
Have a look at your manifold vacuum, probably not going to be much, mine is around 7-8" Hg in park and drops even lower when in gear to 5-6".
I am running a 238/244 @ .050" cam which has only 108 deg LSA.
Bump the initial to 18-20 deg, if that improves you can try to pull more with the v-can but it will likely start to ping at light throttle.
At least mine does, it seems a very thin line where you are able to play here with timing and staying out of the ping area.

 

[BenH]

That is helpful feedback thank you for that.

At idle in park, it is 15inches. I will check again in gear and report back.

Such a strange thing to deal with after having so thoroughly checked so many things.

 

[BenH]

Have you verified the timing mark? Or just set the timing by ear.

You should be able to hold the brakes, put it in gear feathering the gas pedal. Torque converter could be a little tight for that cam but should slip enough to get it rolling. I'm running a stock converter that was behind the original 361. Now 440 with a Sum4601 mild at 466/488 but having a higher stall would only be beneficial when doing a hole shot. It's fine as a cruiser.

The balancer was marked when I assembled the engine, and I use a timing light. It sits right between the 10 and 20 mark at idle in park.

My mentality behind blaming the converter and trans is more a mechanical problem rather than lacking in performance. Is there a pilot bearing or anything like that that could seize up? My previous build was a 65 Polara with a 383 rebuilt to HP spec and I ran the stock turd converter in it as well, not exciting really but it cruised fine. I assumed the same would apply here, it would be lacking but it would still drive and wouldnt cause such an issue. It violently shuts off immediately in gear as if you hit a kill switch, and needs a significant amount of gas to stay running while sitting still, running noticeably rich.

Someone mentioned the potential of an internal intake leak in another thread I read I think, he experienced the corners of the intake not perfectly sealing against the block despite being torqued to spec and had to grind them down. I have dumped an entire box of carb cleaner at every orifice on this thing and I cannot find any leaks.

 

[BenH]

General questions for anyone:

Is there anything in the transmission that will fail like a bearing or rotating surface when in gear, but can still be forced to drive?

Also, how would a converter that hasn't cycled enough fluid inside it react in this situation?

One thing I have not messed with are the original ignition parts, I assume the ballast resistor is fine since the car starts. Do the stock points ignition modules tend to have specific types of failures? I went to look at a 65 Coronet locally the other day I noticed at an old service station just to chat with the guy about it, and noticed it had a new ignition module in it (again, a points car, not elec ignition).

 

[4speed68rt]

The easiest thing to do would be to put a new set of Blue Streak points and condensor, if you dont want to change to electronic ignition. It doesn't take much of a bad setting on the points to make it run bad or not at all. Thats why I, and most people, changed over to electronic. Points are much too frustrating, and take all of the fun out of these cars. Just my opinion.

 

[BenH]

The easiest thing to do would be to put a new set of Blue Streak points and condensor, if you dont want to change to electronic ignition. It doesn't take much of a bad setting on the points to make it run bad or not at all. Thats why I, and most people, changed over to electronic. Points are much too frustrating, and take all of the fun out of these cars. Just my opinion.

The distributor is rebuilt with brand new parts.

Would tossing out that radio condenser that came from a coil lead and grounded to the intake cause an issue?

 

[4speed68rt]

I am not sure what part you are referring to. I haven't used a points type distributor in a long time, but I do remember there was a ceramic block between the coil and the distributor, or something like that. All of that stuff is pretty sensitive to change, so I would say that if it came with it from the factory, it should have it. Somebody else on here will know more about all of the details.

 

[BenH]

So the ceramic block is located on the firewall, and is the ballast resistor. It is next to the ignition module. If it failed it wouldn;t start from what I understand, theyre cheap to get but I don't think it's an issue. The points and condenser are inside the distributor, which was rebuilt.

I had this exact part, i'd say about twice the size of a distributor ignition condenser, located external to the distributor, the wire connected to a coil lead, and the unit itself bolted down to a bolt that held the coil clamp on the intake, to ground it I assume. By it's name I assume it provides some type of resistance or assistance to the radio??? which doesn't make much sense to me. The wire was broken at the base so I just tossed it in the original parts no longer needed bin.

66 67 68 69 70 71 NOS MoPar RADIO CONDENSER GTX Charger Challenger Cuda Fury 300 | eBay

 

[oldbee]

The radio condenser just stops “popping “ from ignition coming thru the radio. If you have a point’s distributor, you shouldn’t have an ‘ignition module’ on the firewall.

 

[Geoff 2]

If the bal res fails, engine will try [ & may fire ] in crank mode, but will die when the key is released to the run position.
15" of vacuum in Park is pretty good......but it also depends on the idle speed. If your getting 15"@ 1500 rpm, not so good, but if you are getting 15"@ 800-1000 rpm, then that is good & normal ign/carb tuning should provide reliable idling in & out of gear.

 

[Wietse]

Your transmission could have dragging clutches.
Lift the rear axle off the floor, when warmed up put the trans in neutral and observe the rear axle as it will spin.
A little and easy to stop and hold the tire is ok though but if it speeds up and is hard to hold back there is a lot of drag in the transmission.

 

[Grabbergreendream]

I owned a car(non-mopar) that had a torque converter come apart internally once. It happened on my way home from school. It stalled coming to a stop at a stop sign and, after restarting the engine acted exactly as you describe when I put the car in drive(immediately stalled). I thought it had an electrical gremlin and owned the car just a few weeks, so had it towed back to the used car dealership & it was repaired under warranty. My Dad was pretty handy around cars but not the newer fuel injected stuff and he was suprized to hear it was the TC as he thought it was electrical also...

 

[khryslerkid]

So the ceramic block is located on the firewall, and is the ballast resistor. It is next to the ignition module.

I'm thinking you are talking about the voltage regulator not a ignition module.

You're talking about it running rich. Poor spark or timing way off can cause this and would stall out when you place it in gear. The engine can idle and rev up under these conditions when not in gear and give the appearance everything is good.

Pull a plug wire and put a new plug into the end. Make sure the body of the plug is grounded good and crank the engine. See how hot the spark looks. Weak, orange spark is bad. A white spark with an audible snap is good.

Let's think simple things first.