440 that doesn't want to idle ... Tale as old as time

[4speed68rt]

My old standard recommendations are always make sure that you have good high octane gas, and make sure that you have all the right rotating assembly parts that match for the balance situation. You mentioned the cast crank, that requires a whole different balancer and convertor. Im not sure how that works on your combo, but most likely it would have to be re-balanced. Also the points setting is always tricky, for me.

 

[BenH]

My old standard recommendations are always make sure that you have good high octane gas, and make sure that you have all the right rotating assembly parts that match for the balance situation. You mentioned the cast crank, that requires a whole different balancer and convertor. Im not sure how that works on your combo, but most likely it would have to be re-balanced. Also the points setting is always tricky, for me.

The entire short block was assembled and balanced at a machine shop that did also polish the crank. New bearings etc, reconditioned 6 pack rods, new pistons. It has the correct external balancer and flex plate, I bought the balancer crank and plate from a Carlisle guy as a matched package for the build.

NOW if the torque converters are vastly different from cast to forged and cause big issues, that's something I know nothing about. The 361 taken out which is still complete minus the oil pan is a forged crank build with appropriate plate and balancer. The 727 that was behind it I simply bolted back up, with the new plate.

 

[4speed68rt]

I don't think that any motor came with 6 pack rods and a cast crank. I tried that once, and it shook like heck, under load, but I didnt have it balanced. It is possible that the machine shop balanced what you have. I am not sure about the torque convertor differences. Maybe somebody else will know more about that.

 

[BenH]

I like the logic, more things pointing to a converter.

If it was a weird combo with the rods and crank though (and I admit this is an oddball build, 70s truck block, I bought the 6 pack rods at Carlisle on a recommendation to get something stronger than stock) then I would assume running in park or neutral would also give an issue? It revs up beautifully.

 

[4speed68rt]

The one that I built started and idles nice and smooth, even if you just eased off the clutch, but if you rev'd it up and tried to do a burn out it would shake the whole car. Mine was on a 4 speed, so I could push the clutch in and keep it running. I am not sure how you would check the balance situation with the motor in the car.

 

[BenH]

That makes sense, but it's a concern I will worry about once I can actually get it to move forward and go on a drive. If they said it's balanced, I am going with that for now.

Once I overcome the initial hesitation/stall and can gas it enough to idle sitting still, put it in gear and pull away, I can go casually cruise the neighborhood and haven't experienced anything like that.

 

[RemCharger]

Hmm.. if they balanced the 6 Pak rods to the cast crank...is it internal, or external balance?..
Any paper work on the balancing?

 

[BenH]

It is externally balanced, as said earlier. Big fat balancer on the front and that big gold flex plate on the rear, 6 pack rods inside. The crank, balancer, and plate were purchased together.

I just googled and found several places where it was discussed that externally balanced 440's with 6 pack rods were common in trucks and RV's, so I am confused that this idea holds much water.

 

[4speed68rt]

You may not be able to get it to move forward and take it for a cruise. It sounds like you know how to make a car run, from your past experience, so you may just keep battling that one with no success.

 

[69Bee]

This is my take. Needs to warm up to idle and when put into gear, stalls. I had the same issue with my car to a point. I had to really advance the initial timing and a high idle to stay running. Every time I tried to lower the idle or timing, it would get to a point where it would just die. Turned out, when I rebuilt the dual point Prestolite distributor, I put in these "Razoo" Mr. Gasket light distributor weight springs, and at idle, the mechanical advance was already "All-in". When I tried to lower the idle and timing, it would just die as the timing was too far off. I removed the springs and replaced the originals, and the problem disappeared. You have poked and prodded everything else (like I did), maybe the same issue?? Just because the distributor was rebuilt doesn't mean couldn't be the problem. An easy way it to just substitute another point distributor to check.

 

[BenH]

Yea I thought about that too, but that involves me buying another distributor.

I'd like to hope Electronic Engineering, which has excellent reviews, knows what they are doing. He ran it on a machine and gave me all the data afterward.

 

[69Bee]

It is externally balanced, as said earlier. Big fat balancer on the front and that big gold flex plate on the rear, 6 pack rods inside. The crank, balancer, and plate were purchased together.

I just googled and found several places where it was discussed that externally balanced 440's with 6 pack rods were common in trucks and RV's, so I am confused that this idea holds much water.

Not sure how this got to a balance issue unless I missed something. If the motor was balanced by the machine shop, it should be fine.

 

[BenH]

Hmm.. if they balanced the 6 Pak rods to the cast crank...is it internal, or external balance?..
Any paper work on the balancing?

The machine shop is owned by my uncle, I was simply told and given my parts and labor receipt. So theres about a 25% chance he is full of sh1t too which is always a great feeling.

 

[BenH]

Not sure how this got to a balance issue unless I missed something. If the motor was balanced by the machine shop, it should be fine.

Exactly. I don't think it's a balance issue.... I just think the transmission might have an issue. They have taken the topic down a back road I wasn't interested in exploring.

Any motor that ''shakes the whole car trying to do a burnout'' sounds like a crap build, a fried clutch, or a driveshaft about to fly apart.

 

[69Bee]

You could remove the distributor cap, and possibly look thru holed in the breaker plate to look at the springs. Stock is a pretty heavy (thick) spring, and a smaller (thinner) spring. If one or both springs are really fine (thin), that could be the issue. There is not enough resistance to hold the weights in.

 

[4speed68rt]

Good luck with that. Just some suggestions from experience. Keep us posted.

 

[RemCharger]

Exactly. I don't think it's a balance issue.... I just think the transmission might have an issue. They have taken the topic down a back road I wasn't interested in exploring.

I agree, if it's smooth, probably ok.
And you don't fully understand balancing.
But that doesn't matter now.

 

[BenH]

You could remove the distributor cap, and possibly look thru holed in the breaker plate to look at the springs. Stock is a pretty heavy (thick) spring, and a smaller (thinner) spring. If one or both springs are really fine (thin), that could be the issue. There is not enough resistance to hold the weights in.

I will check them out and update later, thanks for that suggestion. I have had distributor issues in the past so it;s worth exploring for sure.

 

[BenH]

And you don't fully understand balancing.

I'd love to learn, if you could educate us all. It seems pretty basic really, but I'm not a machinist.

 

[RemCharger]

I'd love to learn, if you could educate us all. It seems pretty basic really, but I'm not a machinist.

The reason a cast crank is ext bal is the cast material is lighter. Now you're adding heavier rods. (No mention of piston type/weight.)
At that point you're adding Mallory. So if you're already adding weight, why wouldn't you continue to just internally balance it.
I have gotten 6 pk rod motors internally balanced.
Again, not likely your issue if it's smooth.
It's when you stated that it's automatically "external balance" simply because that's what was with the crank at the swap meet, that sent all the red flags up.
My apologies for over analyzing this part of the conversation.