440 to 512 build

[Paul_G]

The build has started. My machinist checked the block out and gave it a clean bill of health. No cracks, the bores will clean up at .020, but I need .030 with the stroker kit I am using. The decks are a little out, but will clean up with a very light cut. He rattled off the numbers to me, I didnt write them down. I am having the machinist install the rotating assembly in the block for me. I will take the block home and finish the build myself.

I am going with the 440 source 440 to 512 kit, 440.512.5060. This one was recommended by Ken at 440 Source for my application. I am using the aluminum PP240 heads, this should have the compression ratio land in the mid 10's. This will be primarily a street engine.

The goals;
1st, I need enough vacuum for power brakes
2nd, it must run cool with the A/C on
3rd, make the most power it can within the limits of 1 and 2 above
4th, sound like a muscle car

My build plan is;
· 1978 440 block built to a 500" stroker
· Trick Flow PP240 heads 78cc
· hydraulic roller cam for streetability
· Eddy Performer RPM dual plane intake
· Long tube headers
· Going to use a carb

The car it's going in;
· 4000# 1972 Charger with A/C, power steering, power brakes
· comfortable cruiser
· 8 3/4" diff with 3.91 gears
· 46rh overdrive automatic
· lock up Hughes converter with 2400 stahl, this can be modified by Hughes if need be.

I need to spec a cam. Give me some ideas. The cam needs to work with existing OD trans and rear gear, and preferably with the converter as well. Can a hydraulic roller cam do what I need it to do better than an old school hydraulic flat tappet cam?

 

[1967coronet440]

Best bet is to ask a cam specialist! Dwayne porter, comp custom grind, Hughes...


Trick flows top end kit comes with a hydraulic roller and claims 600hp with their intake

 

[sdconcepts]

don't forget to add a girdle to keep the bottom end together and aluminum main caps help as well.
check out bcrproducts for the top of the line.

 

[Ironbuilt]

What is your compression ratio goal Paul? I see 600hp in your future.

 

[Paul_G]

What is your compression ratio goal Paul? I see 600hp in your future.

Low to mid 10's.

 

[Paul_G]

Trick flows top end kit comes with a hydraulic roller and claims 600hp with their intake

Yes it does. I question how streetable that build would be? Did they build a dyno mule? Or a street friendly cruiser? I dont want a rumpity rump engine. I am willing to give up a little bit of power for a smoother more streetable driver.

 

[Ironbuilt]

Low to mid 10's.

Best of luck to you. I am looking forward to the rest of your build.

 

[1967coronet440]

Yes it does. I question how streetable that build would be? Did they build a dyno mule? Or a street friendly cruiser? I dont want a rumpity rump engine. I am willing to give up a little bit of power for a smoother more streetable driver.

Cam isn’t too wild but it is on a 108 LSA so it’ll have a Lopey idle. Here’s the dyno sheet.

https://static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs-k616-620-576.pdf

 

[happyjackdaddy54]

The build has started. My machinist checked the block out and gave it a clean bill of health. No cracks, the bores will clean up at .020, but I need .030 with the stroker kit I am using. The decks are a little out, but will clean up with a very light cut. He rattled off the numbers to me, I didnt write them down. I am having the machinist install the rotating assembly in the block for me. I will take the block home and finish the build myself.

I am going with the 440 source 440 to 512 kit, 440.512.5060. This one was recommended by Ken at 440 Source for my application. I am using the aluminum PP240 heads, this should have the compression ratio land in the mid 10's. This will be primarily a street engine.

The goals;
1st, I need enough vacuum for power brakes
2nd, it must run cool with the A/C on
3rd, make the most power it can within the limits of 1 and 2 above
4th, sound like a muscle car

My build plan is;
· 1978 440 block built to a 500" stroker
· Trick Flow PP240 heads 78cc
· hydraulic roller cam for streetability
· Eddy Performer RPM dual plane intake
· Long tube headers
· Going to use a carb

The car it's going in;
· 4000# 1972 Charger with A/C, power steering, power brakes
· comfortable cruiser
· 8 3/4" diff with 3.91 gears
· 46rh overdrive automatic
· lock up Hughes converter with 2400 stahl, this can be modified by Hughes if need be.

I need to spec a cam. Give me some ideas. The cam needs to work with existing OD trans and rear gear, and preferably with the converter as well. Can a hydraulic roller cam do what I need it to do better than an old school hydraulic flat tappet cam?

just wanted to know, how did he know the deck was off?

 

[Paul_G]

just wanted to know, how did he know the deck was off?

Truthfully I dont know? He said it was and he is the machinist.

 

[wyrmrider]

Paul
do you have your 42 RH
I have had one in my PU for well over a quarter million miles
Transgo Reprogramming kit
as you may know there are two shaft sizes giving two different planataries systems
I have the early/ smaller on
and using the later planataries will strip
4 clutches in the front and the steel planataries up there with additional planatarie gears Typical HD TF build
wide bands, strong strut etc etc
OD- my thrust washers fried after 50K miles and was rebuilt first by dealer
I am using the early Diesel straight cut planataries in the OD so no load on the planataries- early came first with 22 degree helix planataries which have more thrust which is what smoked
15 degree also available
We also installed the Diesel number of clutches and opened up the oil passages

The later unit- with the slightly larger shaft- just build like a 47RE with the Transgo reprogramming kit and oil mods- I drill the case and the shaft support and install larger fittings
Transgo has a HD OD spring
I run half inch oil lines and a 100 plate and fin cooler with half inch fittings
and a filter - lots of cool oil is key to long life
licensed with logo ATF+4 nothing else although I am testing CITGO Quatrosyn in one vehicle-
Converter is braised fins with roller bearings (B&B)
42RH is not rocket science
except for the OD spring you can build it yourself or call Dave at Transgo for one of their "program" shops near you.
Does not have to be super mega bucks
cheers

 

[wyrmrider]

If he is a machinist and does MOPARS he has the tooling to check
cam to crank, lifter bores, crank to deck etc
I still recommend writing down the deck clearance of all four corners before tearing the pistons out
I recommend that the bore and hone with a torque plate- and line bore-line hone if necessary be done then a trial assembly of all four corners to check deck clearance then mill to set quench but after you have done a few you can figure it out on paper.
I said in another thread that the block should have final cleaning before cam bearings and plugs installed and all oil passages be cleaned/ drilled/ reamed and thrust drilled for oil especially on sticks- check front of block for oil squirters in the oil passage plugs which also bleed off foam/ air
oil squirter drilled on distributor gear
all the little details

 

[BSB67]

Sounds like a nice build. Looking forward to watching your progress.

I like that you are using the PP240. That is what I would do too. It is a better head than all of the other replacement style aftermarket aluminum heads starting from the moment the valve leaves the seat, and it is the smartest designed combustion chamber. You simply don't need a 0.650" lift cam and 650 hp to justify this head, IMO.

You or your machinist should consider grinding valve relief chamfers in the block deck for transitioning the head to the cylinder. Otherwise, there will be quite a step there.

Consider in your planning to achieve a 0.040" quench distance. It looks like a clean-up on the deck will have the piston -0.015" below the deck. Either plan to have the deck milled to get the piston to zero deck and use any of the common, inexpensive 0.040" head gaskets, or, plan to use a thinner MSL if your piston ends up down in the hole. Either is fine, you just need to bake this into your plan early-on so the numbers work out.

With a 0.040" quench, you'll have a compression ratio of 10.86 with the 17 cc dish, and 10.00 with the 27 cc dish. In making this decision, you and your machinist will need to consider your elevation, fuel, cam, and over-all plan for the car. If you grind valve reliefs in the block you will need to add this increased volume to your compression calculation. Maybe also verify with TF exactly the chamber volume as delivered.

If you are having the heads dissembled and inspected, consider having the intake surfaces milled 0.040 to 0.060" I've done this on every cylinder head in the past 35 years. Then you use either the 0.015, or 0.030" paper gaskets (both sides) or a combination of them to get perfect alignment, and perfect seal. Here are other advantages; you will not need any magic goop to make it seal, no scraping on removal, and it can be reused forever. You will also be able to skip the nearly inevitable forum discussion on "...how do I seal my intake..." or, "...my intake leaks, but I cannot get it to fit with the paper gaskets..."

The girdle is insurance that I don't believe anyone has proven to work, but generally agreed that it probably helps. You can pay a little, or a lot for a girdle. You will just need to balance your power level, your pocket book, and level of insurance you think you want. FWIW, a lot of people run at your power level without a girdle.

If you do use a girdle, say one of the less expensive laser cut steel ones that are either 1/4" or 3/8" thick, you can use the Milidon 32000 (standard stroke) windage tray, and it will tuck up nice against the crank, runs the full length of the pan, and works with the 6 quart "Hemi" oil pan.

Consider a scraper.

I have almost nothing specific for you on the cam. But here are a couple of thoughts - have someone, like Mr. Porter, that can truly spend some time with you and get on the same page with you and your goals, and not get you too much, or to aggressive of a cam. IMO, a hydraulic roller has the same inherent issues as a hydraulic FT regarding valve control, maybe even more due to the extra weight. To me, this means slower ramps, moderate lifts and less valve spring, understanding that you might be leaving something on the table.

Final note on cam size and the selection process. A cam measurement that almost no one talks about today is overlap. I believe that this is because for most high performance applications where idle quality means little or nothing, it is somewhat meaningless. However, to a guy that is looking for good low rpm in gear idle quality (say 12 - 14" vacuum at 750 rpm in gear, putt though the neighborhood at 1000 rpm) then overlap will help you determine if a cam might meet your desired idle characteristics. Overlap is not used to pick the cam, it is just one of the measurements that should be used to check if a cam makes sense. For reference, the factory hp cam has 46°, the FAST cars are around 50°, mine is 54°. No hard and fast rule here, as a more gentle ramp hydraulic cam will idle better than a similar aggressive lobe cam.

Can't wait to follow your progress.

 

[wyrmrider]

yes match the block champher to the combustion chamber on the intake- exhaust not necessary unless mechanical interference with the valve
on your valves- yes check the guides for clearance and concentrically first you can knurl and ream/ hone to hold some oil especially on the exhausts
the spiral does not have to go all the way to the chamber
you can OD hone the valves to keep them from acting like little files (if non chromed SS) or to hold some oil on all
unfortunately you have to check everything- including spring pressure to match your cam

overlap is interesting but IMHO should be the result of picking all four of the valve opening and closing events- not an input
then look at it
The factory HP cam uses MOPARS unique method of determining timing taking from the blueprint where where the clearance ramp meets the acceleration ramp and subtracting an arbitrary 8 degrees
But it tends to end up equivalent to about .008- like an ENGLE
it is smaller at .006 (Comp, Lunati, Howards, etc
and is Way Way smaller at .004 (SAE- Crane)
closing side is way worse than opening with really long ramps that do not show on factory timing numbers
I have the numbers if you are interested
so hard to compare unless you are using the same parameters
long rod engines- and you still are compared to a chevy- have more mechanical rod ratio dwell around TDC so a little overlap goes a long way and really easy to get too much- which just blows fuel out the exhaust as well as killing vacuum
The intake needs to open based on flow demand- which is determined by exhaust pull if you are running open headers but mostly by piston motion and there is no piston motion at TDC and with a long rod engine not much for awhile (in crank degrees)
so you do not need to start opening the intake as early as a short rod engine (smaller lifter also has to start earlier)
do not let chevy techs give you cam advice they see a lot more short rod chevy's and fords than mopars

 

[5.7 hemi]

I swear, hearing so much about cams, timing, valves and heads makes me wonder if I’m in Space Shuttle building 101! I’m trying to keep up and falling further behind.

 

[coloradodave]

I'm with you, Zack....All this for a street car? I'm sure there are members who will make good use of all the technical information, and it is interesting to read, but for a street cruiser, too confusing and overkill....JMHO

 

[Paul_G]

I swear, hearing so much about cams, timing, valves and heads makes me wonder if I’m in Space Shuttle building 101! I’m trying to keep up and falling further behind.

I'm with you, Zack....All this for a street car? I'm sure there are members who will make good use of all the technical information, and it is interesting to read, but for a street cruiser, too confusing and overkill....JMHO

Deep in the weeds technical stuff it is. The guys who know this stuff, they are engine builders and/or extreme hobbyist's. I enjoy hearing what they are saying, and it all makes sense if you can imagine in your mind what is happening inside the combustion chamber. These tricks are things that have been learned over decades, and they are giving us this knowledge for free.

Granted, it is not easy to understand most of it. But I would guarantee that doing these things makes more horsepower. The difference may be a 550 HP car show queen, or a 600 HP car that will surprise you.

 

[Paul_G]

I looked around on Comps website and lunati's too. Not much info on big block Mopar roller cam's. They only list a few choices. Lots of info on hydraulic flat tappet. Going to make some calls to Hughes, Howards, and others. Does Dwayne Porter custom grind roller cams? I have spoken to him before, the man is topps in engine building.

 

[andyf]

The Trick Flow hyd roller cam should be a good choice for your engine. I use a Crane 246 hyd roller in my 512 and it works pretty well. My cam might be a touch larger than I need but it runs hard. For your engine I'd stay right around 240 duration or less. Comp has a couple of cams that would work in your engine. The 286HR is 236/242 which would be pretty smooth in a 500 inch engine. The next one up is 292HR which is 242/248. That one would have a bit of lope at idle in a 500 inch engine and would pull hard to 6000+ rpm. It is probably more than you need with power brakes and an OD transmission.

 

[BSB67]

I looked around on Comps website and lunati's too. Not much info on big block Mopar roller cam's. They only list a few choices. Lots of info on hydraulic flat tappet. Going to make some calls to Hughes, Howards, and others. Does Dwayne Porter custom grind roller cams? I have spoken to him before, the man is topps in engine building.

Comp probably has 20 different hydraulic roller lobe styles/families and probably 10+ lobe sizes in each lobe family. These are in their master lobe catalog. Dwayne, if he wanted to use Comp for your application, would pick lobes from this seamingly endless supply of choices.