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67 GTX 440 Engine Temperature With AC

Update-
I installed the 180 thermostat and the threads on the right side of the water pump housing stripped out before getting to 30 pounds of torque. Sweet!

I guess I may as well rethread the other side too since they will be stripped before I try the 160, and start down the road with the three temps of available high flow thermostats, then the various size no thermostats with center knockouts and the thermostats with the pop open/stay open on fail. This may delay my findings. I hope I can rethread without removing the AC compressor.

A car with a 100K warranty is starting to look good.

My wife only tried to sell the GTX once today. Slow day for her. Usually more than once.
 
It kind of makes me wonder how much good it does to install a high flow pump if the old standard thermostat is left in place - obviously they are the choke point on flow in the system. It probably explains why there are so many varied opinions of the value/benefits of high flow pumps.

Pretty funny about the wife. Mine never encourages me to sell anything. She knows I'll just turn around and drag something new home and start all over again.

Good luck.
 
67GTX440 said:
Is this picture funny, or do your A/C compressor belts run at a pretty weird angle as compared to the water pump belt?
Click to expand...

Wow that does look weird! The belts are all lined up I guess its my bent camera.
 
67GTX440 said:
Update-
I installed the 180 thermostat and the threads on the right side of the water pump housing stripped out before getting to 30 pounds of torque. Sweet!
Click to expand...
I see Murphy was there lending a helping hand. He was at my side when I swapped cams last summer.
 
oldbee said:
Been waiting also!!!
Click to expand...

Got the hurricane out of the way, stripped water pump thread issue resolved, and the 180 degree thermostat installed.

The end result for the 180 degree thermostat, no thermostat and the 195 degree thermostat are pretty much the same as I thought they would be. Thanks for letting me strip my water pump housing threads to prove it! LOL
Car runs 205 to 210 with the 180 or 195 thermostat and dips to a hair under 200 at idle in the heat with the A/C on. I don't really seem to have a "stuck in traffic with creeping temp" problem. A/C on or off does not seem to make much temperature difference. A 160 thermostat should give the exact same result after full temperature is reached.

The car may have run just few degrees cooler without the thermostat and I assume this is due to better water circulation. The thermostat helps the car to come to operating temperature quicker and keeps it at preferred operating temperature if operating temperature is otherwise below where it should be (180). A lower temperature thermostat appears to do nothing to reduce temp for a car that runs above that temp at full warm up, or at least this car. You have to remember that if you have a car designed to run 180 that runs at 160, that is not necessarily a good thing. It may not be running efficiently at 160.

Without the thermostat, the radiator is the primary restriction, but it does seem that cooling was a little better. I could run the car year round without a thermostat in the FL climate, but in most climates it would not be recommended due to impact on heater warmup and operating temperature in winter.

I have been reading other forums on this issue and ran across some interesting articles on the differences waterpumps and in OEM verses aluminum waterpump housings. It appears that some of the aluminum 440Source water pump housings has some significant flow restriction issues. Chinese reverse engineering of an existing part seems to be limited by their tooling equipment, but it does not keep them from manufacturing and selling stuff in the US. If you buy a no brand aluminum water pump housing or water pump off ebay, buyer beware.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.0.htm

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,96616.0.html

Another interesting link was a guy that tested eight different Mopar water pumps for flow over various RPM ranges from OEM to high flow, six blade, eight blade, curved blade, reverse curved blade, metal blade, plastic blade, with anti-cavitation plate, without anti-cavitation plate, and even a Mopar marine water pump. He actually installed them on the same engine and attached them to a flow meter to get flow at various normal operating RPM's. His finding seem to be that there is no significant difference, so you can't beat an OEM water pump and for some reason the marine pumps a lot of water at low RPM, and might be a cure for idling overheating. I believe the OEM came in behind the Marine somewhat in both low and high RPM flow.

They also talk a little about drag racing needs. Lots of idling in drag racing and short bursts followed by a cool down. Track racing is totally different. When you buy something "high performance" for racing the type of racing really matters. A street car may experience more extremes in both idling and continual high RPM operation both than a race car.

This is a pretty interesting read. I am thinking these guys on the Charger forum are like scientists, collecting and testing various products. I like that approach!

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.200.html

None of this solves my issue, except they seem to stay sticking with OEM is best since the engineers who designed the car probably knew best. My car is essentually all OEM from the factory A/C to the radiator, to the shroud, to the thermostat now 180. I have a slightly higher flow water pump, but don't really know if any higher flow than a factory A/C water pump if different. When you buy one, they don't seem to list A/C or non A/C pumps. The one I installed is supposed to flow 30% higher than OEM, which is close to OEM. The other thing different is the heavy duty thermal clutch fan. I don't think either of these are making a difference in my car running over 200 degrees on a hot day with the A/C on.

I still plan to check timing, advance, A/F ratio and vacuum to rule that out. If that is in spec, I think I just have to accept running 205-210 on a hot day with the A/C on as "normal" for this car as long as it never gets hot enough to spit coolant. It would be interesting to know what a dealership would have said back "in the day".

I remember my dad taking a 70 Chevy Impala under warranty back to the dealership because the trunk leaked and having them return the car to him with one of the factory drain plugs removed from the trunk floor on the side it was leaking as the solution! These cars were not built to close tolerance. I bought a new Ford in 1972 and when I returned it to the dealer after normal break-in period because it consumed a quart of oil every 600 miles, they said that was within acceptable oil consumption standard. I traded the car in in 1974 on another Ford that did not have the problem.

Sadly enough, Audi was telling their customers the same thing regarding oil consumption on their 2.0 turbo engines a two or three years ago. They were claiming it was a "high performance" engine, and as such, was expected to consume synthetic oil at a rate of up to a quart every thousand miles. I think a class action suit finally changed their tune.
 
Last edited:
I think you're probably right; if it's not puking out, should be good to go. I remember when racing always had 2 extra bags of ice to cool down intake between runs.
 
The danger zone tic on a standard water temp gauge seems to be about 215 degrees. At 205 to 210 I am well below boiling point, particularly with a 16 pound radiator cap and an antifreeze mix. Again this had been the daily 90 degree plus time of the year, running the A/C at max. I assume it may be cooler the rest of the year. If I uncover anything else with regard to timing, advance, A/F ratio or vacuum, I will report back. Hoping to find someone with an old Sun machine who knows how to use it.
Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas.
 
Thanks again for doing all this work and reporting on it in such great detail, sorry I forgot about the hurricane! Hope you did not have any ill effects. Based on your findings I agree that we may not actually have as big a problem as we may think, although I may still try the 2947 clutch and the larger fan. Good luck.
 
I had some overheating issues with my 440 (no AC). Well, not overheating but running hotter than I would like. On a 95 degree day it would run 195 in traffic and 205 on the highway. Here`s what I did:
- idle timing 22*, 36* at 2800 RPM and 54* full vacuum
- replaced water pump impeller (took from old pump) - it has huge blades, big diameter (earlier in this thread there was a water pump flow test mentioned - mine is RV style that produced the most flow at idle)
- Put a new HD fan clutch and a spacer to move the fan/clutch closer to radiator (about 1/2" away from rad.)
- installed Milodon high flow t-stat 180*
- made a new fan shroud (now the distance between the fan blade tip to shroud is no more than 1/2")
- installed a smaller water pump pulley (crank pulley is the biggest I could find, a bit more than 7"). I could not find a small pump pulley that would be deep enough so I made one. Now it is 5" diameter and lines up with alternator and crank pulleys.

All of that brought the temps down to 180 at idle and 185 on the highway. When I fired it up after all those things done I wanted to bleed the air from cooling system but could not get the t-stat open because the cooling system is efficient now - it barely opens and immediately closes. I can hear the fan pulling lots of air though the radiator now and the air flow is huge with 20" fan - Mopar action magazine would stick to the front of the radiator at idle easily.

20160905_185146.jpg
20160816_215549[1].jpg
 
The clutch and fan has no affect at 65 mph. If wind resistance at that speed is not putting enough air threw the radiator find out what is deflecting it and correct the problem.
 
In my case it was the shroud. It was restrictive in the corners - see second picture. I came up with another shroud that apparently flows better (first picture).
 
67GTX440 said:
I live in Florida where the summer temperature is a consistent 90-95. Car has 195 degree thermostat, so runs 195 with AC off. I have been told by Classic Air to expect running the AC in hot weather to add 15 degrees to operating temperature. Car runs 205 to 210 degrees with the A/C on on a scorching day. New cars run these temps and may even have 205 degree thermostats.

Should I have any worry about this or is this a normal expectation for and A/C car in a hot climate? I am assuming going to a 180 thermostat would only reduce the time at startup until the thermostat opened since the car is running 195 with the the thermostat open and the AC off. Am I wrong about this?

Any responses from those with 67 440 A/C cars in a hot climate and a temperature gauge on what their car runs with A/C off and A/C on would be appreciated.

I see lots of "my car never runs above 180 degrees with a 180 degree thermostat", but not necessarily from someone with A/C in a hot climate.
Click to expand...
 
There is one more area to be concerned about. That is where the fan blade is sitting regards to the shroud. It is important to get the fan positioned at the proper distance in the shroud and not to far in or out. There has been topics on this before. To far in and it will cavitate and not allow proper suction and decrease the pulling performance. To far out and you get the same problem. There is a fine line that needs to be reached.
 
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