Cloning: tribute, fraud, or ????

[67CoronetR/T]

Totally agree with everyone. It's not wrong unless you cheat someone!

 

[SOUPENE]

here's my tribuite car i did a few years ago.

 

[ramairthree]

Well, if you try to sell it as the real thing, it is a fraud. Hard to do now, but when I got my 69 GTO in the 80s I did not know enough to look at VIN numbers and the information was not everywhere. It had real GTO rear side marker lights instead of Lemans lights, so I went with that.

It was not that long ago, someone could by a base car, fix it up as a clone, and make money.

That is not the case now. But I will say my real 69 GTO is not a real RamAir/Judge car. Same VIN as one but you can go by PHS paperwork to tell it did not leave the factory a RAIII Judge 4-speed. It was an automatic regular GTO 400 engine with a vinyl top.
But, I like the cars on the road, and at 4000 or so miles a year on it, no one would do that with a real one.

Not a clone, but an "homage", I took a green 71 Javelin SST and made it like one of the old AMC factory race red/whie/blue AMXs. No AMX hood or grille, but I have been driving it a lot. It sat for 20 years, and has horrible rustoleum driveway bodywork and paint.

My 74 318 RR may need some 440 stickers and GTX badge when I am done with it, or may not. Who knows. Like the Javelin, it was going to get crushed or parted out after not selling for ages.

Some people pay more for a fancy bicycle than I paid for the Javelin or RR. They are not getting real restorations. Just road worthy and saved from disapearing.

 

[skyman51]

Here is my real one. It is 1 of 96 built. I drive it to shows within a reasonable distance, It doesn't like stop and go driving. I love the looks and questions it gets. I have no problem with building a "recreation", just don;t pass it off as the real deal. I agree it is up to the buyer to know what they are buying but it is also up to a honorable seller to be up front. We all enjoy our cars in different ways. That is what it is about.

 

[NMGary]

I'm seeing a lot of "it's up to the buyer to know the difference" answers. No, it's not. It is up to the seller to divulge all info about the car. This is exactly why I posted this. There a lot of cheaters out there.

 

[skyman51]

I'm seeing a lot of "it's up to the buyer to know the difference" answers. No, it's not. It is up to the seller to divulge all info about the car. This is exactly why I posted this. There a lot of cheaters out there.

There is a Latin term, "Caveat Emptor", Buyer Beware. It is not up to the seller to educate a buyer. Bring your expert if you don't know. I agree with you as I have always divulged everything about a car I sell, but ultimitately it rests with the buyer if the seller is not so open.

 

[696pack]

Extra metal brace welded in behind the rear spring hangers on frame?

DING, DING, DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!

Few people know that OR that Hemi cars also have a second pinion snubber reinforcement plate welded over the standard one. Both of these things are Hemi only items.

Rear torque boxes are found on all convertibles as well as Hemis and front torque boxes are found only on converts.

Some non Hemi cars are found with rear torque boxes as well. This is likely a car that was intended to be a Hemi car and got switched to something else OR just a new guy on the line that thought all cars got them.

 

[696pack]

There is a Latin term, "Caveat Emptor", Buyer Beware. It is not up to the seller to educate a buyer. Bring your expert if you don't know. I agree with you as I have always divulged everything about a car I sell, but ultimitately it rests with the buyer if the seller is not so open.

I agree with all above AND often times the car was done by someone several owners back the the current owner has no idea of what they REALLY have. If you are looking for a REAL car then you better know what to look for because the seller may not. "Caveat Emptor."

 

[moparstuart]

Yes they do but if you notice it keeps reverting back to the mighty dollar, having something thats original therefore expensive and yet another step ahead of the Jones. Its normal, but i ask myself the question on who has more fun, The guy who looks at his sitting well hidden and secure from the world in a building or me and others who are headed to the local ice cream stand to have some fun.

totally agree i drive mine everywhere , to me why have it if your not going to drive the hell out of it and enjoy it , other wise it might as well be in a museum

 

[snakecharmer777]

i have a real 71 rr 4- speed car and a 72 sattelitte the sattelite came with the rally gauges front discs bucket seats electrc windows when im done tributing it into a car i want i will sport the rr badges and emblems but nothing will make that vin read rm instead of rh i love the mighty birds more than the sattellites why not dress one up like the real deal just be honest

 

[Jonnyuma]

A clone is an EXACT re-creation of an existing car, whether factory, a hot rod, or some Ed Roth creation from the 60s.

A tribute would be close, like RAMAIR3's Javelin homage.

Deceptive is telling people or letting people believe either is the "real"thing.

Fraudulent is making money from the deception.
In a perfect world sellers wouldn't practice fraud or deception, but you know the world isn't perfect.

A person whose gonna play in the arena of high priced investment-grade cars had better know their **** inside and out. Personally, my knowledge is nowhere near that level and I would have to hire a trustwothy expert.
Not being 100% sure and throwing large sums of money down for an object that is only worth that kind of money BECAUSE of it's originality and heritage is just bad business.
Saying that the sellers should make full disclosure is at best hopeful, at worst naive.
There's scammers and racketeers in ALL forms of commerce from junk-bonds and real estate down to the guy selling gen-u-ine Rolex watches out of the trunk of his Subaru. There's no reason to think cars would be any different. Of course, all of us HERE are honest, but the rest of the world, maybe not so much...

I hate to be such a cynic, but caveat emptor (my Latin is a bit rusty) is the name of this game.

Sometimes I'm glad I'm broke. :happy3:

 

[696pack]

A clone is an EXACT re-creation of an existing car, whether factory, a hot rod, or some Ed Roth creation from the 60s.

A tribute would be close, like RAMAIR3's Javelin homage.
Deceptive is telling people or letting people believe either is the "real"thing.

Fraudulent is making money from the deception.
In a perfect world sellers wouldn't practice fraud or deception, but you know the world isn't perfect.

A person whose gonna play in the arena of high priced investment-grade cars had better know their **** inside and out. Personally, my knowledge is nowhere near that level and I would have to hire a trustwothy expert.
Not being 100% sure and throwing large sums of money down for an object that is only worth that kind of money BECAUSE of it's originality and heritage is just bad business.
Saying that the sellers should make full disclosure is at best hopeful, at worst naive.
There's scammers and racketeers in ALL forms of commerce from junk-bonds and real estate down to the guy selling gen-u-ine Rolex watches out of the trunk of his Subaru. There's no reason to think cars would be any different. Of course, all of us HERE are honest, but the rest of the world, maybe not so much...

I hate to be such a cynic, but caveat emptor (my Latin is a bit rusty) is the name of this game.

Sometimes I'm glad I'm broke. :happy3:

If you would have read my FIRST post in this thread you will see why clone is NOT a correct term because it would also have to have the correct V.I.N. that they are cloning. Anybody that knows anything about these cars know to look at the V.I.N. to determine if a car is real or not. We have been discussing this throughout this thread. I wish people would read the entire thread before posting after reading just the 1st or last post.

Dating back to Dolly the sheep (the 1st thing sucessfully cloned) the sheep was created in a test tube with DNA from another sheep and implanted into a host mother. Dolly had the exact same DNA as the donor and none from the host mother. She was exactly the same in every way. Clone is an incorrect term for made up cars but we are stuck with it in the hobby because of it's accepted use

 

[Jonnyuma]

me-YOW...:icon_cat:

 

[696pack]

me-YOW...:icon_cat:

If that is directed at me it is also directed at others that take the time to post in all of these threads. EVERYONE owes it to the others that take the time to post in ALL threads weather it is for educational infomation or opinion to READ the entire thread before commenting. Great if you want to just agree with a reponse and state so, but you don't have to repeat all of it.

In the case of MY response to your post my intent is to correct your incorrect statement of the difference between a clone and a tribute. There is a reason that people use different names for these things. Some know and understand the TRUE difference and some don't. Unfortunately in the latter the incorrect terms often breed as do many urban myths, rumors, etc. and then even though incorrect it becomes accepted as an accurate term. Your post is an example of that and if you would have READ the entire thread first you would have seen this. I am just attempting to stop the spread of incorrect info, but it likely is falling on deaf ears or is too late to correct this issue.

 

[Jonnyuma]

Nope. Just you.

that is to be applied to your first sentence because that's all I read, big-shot.

 

[69clone]

I dont mind my clone I'm 19 and dont have 30k for a real one... Plus after I got my satellite I learned about the A12's which is now my goal so I really don't have money for a real one nor would I want to drive it everyday like I do or park at a grocery store parking lot.

 

[moparstuart]

Clone is a universal excepted term in the car world , it may not always be exactly correct but people know what your talking about when you say it . The factory never made a superbird convertible but my car is still a clone to me .

 

[68GTX4SPEED]

My car is not a clone, just a updated version :rolling:

 

[Jonnyuma]

Uh-oh. There's gonna be trouble now...
Stand by to be corrected. Didn't you READ EVERY POST?! Especially the ones by 696 cuz after he says something there's no need for any further discussion.
He should really be the last poster in every thread for precisely that reason. How this one got so long after 696 posted on the first page just shows everyone's lack of knowledge, class, and respect for the preeminent expert in, well...everything.

 

[NMGary]

Easy, fellers...MMMM-K? This is going just where I had hoped (getting some real, honest feedback). Let's not kill it with sophomoric rivalry?