Cooling issues - and a weird question

[khryslerkid]

I was scratching my head on my setup too. The first fire up, to break in the cam, didn't take too long to get up to the 180 T stat temp, and it never got above that the whole 20+minutes. A couple of days later I fired it up to set the idle, timing and carbs and it took forever to get to the 180*.

I'm thinking that these radiators we have, with the shroud, plus we both have the same fan, which really does move some air, is doing the job!

I'm running E free, 91 octane also. I'm sure that helps a lot too. And a Water Wetter with dist.water.

Glad to hear your back on the road again Ed!

 

[moparedtn]

Way to go Ed: Your determination and patience have paid off. Best of luck in future endeavors.

Thanks so much, Bob. Not there yet, but a darn sight closer for sure.

 

[moparedtn]

congratulations! ...... persistence pays! ...... I/we were all rooting for ya!

Thanky kindly.
I reckon I'm back to where I thought I was a few times before in all this, namely, sorting out minor little bugs at the end of a resurrection.

 

[moparedtn]

I was scratching my head on my setup too. The first fire up, to break in the cam, didn't take too long to get up to the 180 T stat temp, and it never got above that the whole 20+minutes. A couple of days later I fired it up to set the idle, timing and carbs and it took forever to get to the 180*.

I'm thinking that these radiators we have, with the shroud, plus we both have the same fan, which really does move some air, is doing the job!

I'm running E free, 91 octane also. I'm sure that helps a lot too. And a Water Wetter with dist.water.

Glad to hear your back on the road again Ed!

View attachment 448001

Thanks KK!
Wow, I likes them thar fancy gauges you got there.
Yep on the radiator and the fan - Professor Ehrenbergs' record is still perfect, at least with me. He nailed it on the Griffin and Dave nailed it on the fan recommendation. Stock shroud fit this Griffin perfectly, too.
I actually started believing the fan alone was keeping the engine cooled enough to keep the thermostat from opening, then I remembered drilling those holes in the t-stat.
Reckon that little bit of water movement is enough when idling? I can't prove it isn't.

 

[moparedtn]

I just went back and read my original post in this thread.
A quote from that post:
"I want overkill. I want the thing to struggle to make 180F. I want the total peace of mind that says it can't overheat - ever."
I reckon we're there.

 

[khryslerkid]

Thanks KK!
Wow, I likes them thar fancy gauges you got there.
Yep on the radiator and the fan - Professor Ehrenbergs' record is still perfect, at least with me. He nailed it on the Griffin and Dave nailed it on the fan recommendation. Stock shroud fit this Griffin perfectly, too.
I actually started believing the fan alone was keeping the engine cooled enough to keep the thermostat from opening, then I remembered drilling those holes in the t-stat.
Reckon that little bit of water movement is enough when idling? I can't prove it isn't.

I drilled one 1/16" hole in my T-stat. and that will keep an air pocket from forming. My stat opens right at 180* and the water starts moving but not before. I used a stock eight blade water pump.

I'm thinking I might have to change it to a 195* if it acts cold natured and the plug readings show it. Time will tell...

 

[Cornpatch MO]

Thanks so much, Bob. Not there yet, but a darn sight closer for sure.

Glad to hear that all your efforts have been successful. Now quit mess'in with it and get out there and put some happy miles on.
I have been plagued with one after another problem of a different sort. Today I was headed to a friends shop to put in new motor mounts ( the old ones had less than 2000 miles) and a new Schumacker torque strap. The engine had been ticking a little and seems to have gotten a little louder, While there we would put a stethoscope to it and trace it down. The ticking got much worse-rapidly , and then I lost all oil pressure. This is day- ja- vu all over again ! Same thing happened last year. Call for a tow , got to the shop, pulled a valve cover, and sure enough--broken rocker shaft. I had never heard of that happening , and now it's happened to me twice in one year ! This is one for a new tech thread...........................MO

 

[moparedtn]

I drilled one 1/16" hole in my T-stat. and that will keep an air pocket from forming. My stat opens right at 180* and the water starts moving but not before. I used a stock eight blade water pump.

I'm thinking I might have to change it to a 195* if it acts cold natured and the plug readings show it. Time will tell...

I might have overdone the drilling part - mine has three 1/8" holes in it.
Still, the thought of keeping any engine cool with just those holes, leave alone a big block, just doesn't compute. I figure it just delays it getting to the final operating temperature a little bit.

It's also quite interesting to me that this Edelbrock changed so much just from putting the jetting/rods back in it that it came with originally. It seems pretty close on setup now, although I'm not thrilled on how quickly the secondaries kick in - it seems pretty late in the pedal travel to me.
Not used to this type carb I guess, with those counterweights and all that crap.
On the other hand, it ran smoothly without hiccup at any RPM I chose yesterday. Might have something to do with it running cooler, too.

On the t-stat temperature, I always remembered cars running 180's back then; the FSM confirmed that for me when I was reading it recently as well.
That has stuck with me all these years and I even change out the t-stats on my modern cars to 180 as well. I know, I know, emissions and fuel economy, yada yada, they're designed to run hotter.
I've just seen too many engines ruined from heat in my lifetime, I guess.

 

[moparedtn]

Glad to hear that all your efforts have been successful. Now quit mess'in with it and get out there and put some happy miles on.
I have been plagued with one after another problem of a different sort. Today I was headed to a friends shop to put in new motor mounts ( the old ones had less than 2000 miles) and a new Schumacker torque strap. The engine had been ticking a little and seems to have gotten a little louder, While there we would put a stethoscope to it and trace it down. The ticking got much worse-rapidly , and then I lost all oil pressure. This is day- ja- vu all over again ! Same thing happened last year. Call for a tow , got to the shop, pulled a valve cover, and sure enough--broken rocker shaft. I had never heard of that happening , and now it's happened to me twice in one year ! This is one for a new tech thread...........................MO

Thanks, Mo.

Dang, is that happening with factory rocker shafts or aftermarket ones?
Was it the same head as before? Wonder if the rocker shaft saddle wasn't machined true or I dunno...
Yep, new thread time for sure.
I think I'll take my driveshaft loose from the rear axle and rotate it 180 degrees to try and get rid of the vibration. I know of no other reason for it to start this nonsense - the car hasn't had this problem before.

 

[Hemirunner]

On the t-stat temperature, I always remembered cars running 180's back then; the FSM confirmed that for me when I was reading it recently as well.
That has stuck with me all these years and I even change out the t-stats on my modern cars to 180 as well. I know, I know, emissions and fuel economy, yada yada, they're designed to run hotter.
I've just seen too many engines ruined from heat in my lifetime, I guess.

Glad to hear all of your heating issues are resolved. Now you can enjoy driving it.
The new cars run around 210 and they've found that engine wear is actually less at the higher temps. The new engines are going several hundred thousand miles without the wear our older ones saw in a fraction of that time.

 

[moparedtn]

Glad to hear all of your heating issues are resolved. Now you can enjoy driving it.
The new cars run around 210 and they've found that engine wear is actually less at the higher temps. The new engines are going several hundred thousand miles without the wear our older ones saw in a fraction of that time.

Thanky kindly, sir.
Well, there's a lot more to it than that, really. Metallurgy, manufacturing processes and even lubrication advances all make it so that they can build 'em better these days than our engines of decades ago - and in doing so, surviving higher temps and closer tolerances that federal emission laws forced them into, if we're honest.

Now, does that mean an engine with a block cast in the 60's or 70's could be rebuilt to similar tolerances - and to withstand that same higher operating temperature?
Perhaps, but it probably isn't very cost-effective (or wise) to do so, given the comparatively inferior metallurgy in it.
These critters of ours were originally specified to run with 180 thermostats for daily use for a reason.

I was just watching a video today, in fact, of a dyno session with a new Ford Coyote crate motor that was pushing 500hp right out of the box. Holley was performing the testing, tuning it using one of their EFI computers instead of the factory one.
The fellow conducting the test was Holleys' resident elder expert and his own car had just won a Wally in racing the week previous; he knows his stuff, simply put.
When asked what temperature the Coyote should be installed to run on the street, his answer was quick and simple:
If there isn't a concern with emissions testing - and if the owner wants it to be faster - then 160-180 degrees is where they want to run it.
His words.

 

[Hemirunner]

I was just watching a video today, in fact, of a dyno session with a new Ford Coyote crate motor that was pushing 500hp right out of the box. Holley was performing the testing, tuning it using one of their EFI computers instead of the factory one.
The fellow conducting the test was Holleys' resident elder expert and his own car had just won a Wally in racing the week previous; he knows his stuff, simply put.
When asked what temperature the Coyote should be installed to run on the street, his answer was quick and simple:
If there isn't a concern with emissions testing - and if the owner wants it to be faster - then 160-180 degrees is where they want to run it.
His words.

Yep, 210 to 180 will make more power. Mine uses a stock 47 year old radiator, a stock style clutch fan, water pump and 7 blade fan. It makes 700hp and we're throwing a ton of nitrous at it. This was on a 88 degree day during a nitrous dragstip pass. Check out the temp gauge.

 

[moparedtn]

Yep, 210 to 180 will make more power. Mine uses a stock 47 year old radiator, a stock style clutch fan, water pump and 7 blade fan. It makes 700hp and we're throwing a ton of nitrous at it. This was on a 88 degree day during a nitrous dragstip pass. Check out the temp gauge.

Can't complain about that at all.

 

[moparedtn]

Oops, found out what the drivetrain vibration is.
There is a serious amount of slop in the tail on the transmission where the yoke for the driveshaft goes in. Yoke depth is about perfect, but I can easily "rattle" the yoke around inside the tailshaft housing of the tranny.
Crap...

 

[Fran Blacker]

Transmission shops have a tool to pull bushing, no trans removal .

 

[Fran Blacker]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MILLER-TOOL...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Ed this is what to tool looks like, this I don't know if this tool is for mopars. Look for an older trans shop they probably will have one for a mopar. Have a bushing and seal ready for them so you don't wait for parts. I was quoted $90 labor. It's probably an hour job, labor a round here is about $90 per hour. I haven't done it to my car because after the quote my H-pipe might need to be removed. The cross over is at end of trans so it would be hot when I drove it there. More hassles, Doing other project now may remove tail shaft myself or buy the tool.

 

[Cornpatch MO]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MILLER-TOOL-8158-EXTENTION-HOUSING-BUSHING-REMOVER/292076672874?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Ed this is what to tool looks like, this I don't know if this tool is for mopars. Look for an older trans shop they probably will have one for a mopar. Have a bushing and seal ready for them so you don't wait for parts. I was quoted $90 labor. It's probably an hour job, labor a round here is about $90 per hour. I haven't done it to my car because after the quote my H-pipe might need to be removed. The cross over is at end of trans so it would be hot when I drove it there. More hassles, Doing other project now may remove tail shaft myself or buy the tool.

I would first expect the yoke splines to be worn. This is very common on 18 wheeler drive lines, and certainly will cause a vibration. ...........................MO

 

[moparedtn]

It occurs to me that I never updated this thread for some "closure", so here it is August 5th. Status of the car is that it has been driven several times successfully (!)
and I couldn't be happier.
Ok, maybe "relieved" is a better word.
Ok....both of those.

You get in it and run it a few minutes (after the engine re-primes on fuel, which it has to do every time it sits more than a day - thanks for the crappy gas EPA!), then take off after a little heat is in it (no choke, remember).
It goes down the highway really well and runs very cool (like less than 180F cool).
Once I'm stuck in traffic, that climbs probably 20 degrees or so; appears I need to do more work on the shroud/fan area, but it's nothing concerning.
In short....it's a car again.
A major chunk of getting my house in order is now at hand.

In regards to the yoke/bushing issue, Beekeeper came over with his tool for the bushing and things went absolutely flawlessly in pulling the old one out and installing the new one.
It was readily apparent it wasn't his first rodeo and his help is GREATLY appreciated!
We went for a test drive afterward, so he is now a witness that the GTX is roadworthy.
That seems to have cleared up the vibration quite a bit as well; it's not noticeable much at all anymore as I've began shakedown trips with it.
Longest so far was a couple hours last Thursday; it performed as my company vehicle for the day:

She did great all the way down there and back.
I made the company fill the tank, too. Hey, used for company business, right?

The only issue now is a bearing type noise coming from either the water pump or alternator once it gets warm. Sounds almost like a tiny supercharger.
The alternator is charging fine; the water pump is obviously pumping fine, too.
Both are new.
I took the belt off and tried to find any sign of play or binding in either.
Nada.
No signs at all that either are failing or malfunctioning.
Only thing I can come up with is that the water pump seal is fussing because of a lack of lubricant (remember, distilled water and Water Wetter in there).
I'll toss a couple bottles of water pump lubricant in tomorrow to see if that helps.
It's going to be changed over to 50/50 mix before winter anyways.

By the way, I am LOVING this Centerforce Dual Friction clutch. It takes some getting used to but MAN, what a blessing to have half the pedal effort in a 11" clutch!
Who'd a thunk it?

That's about it for now. From here, I fiddle with the car like old farts are supposed to, putting in a radio and antenna, chasing down exhaust rattles, things like that.
Knock wood, nothing major will need addressed from here on.
Lord knows the car could use a break after the last decade of hell it's been through....
and so could I.

 

[moparedtn]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MILLER-TOOL-8158-EXTENTION-HOUSING-BUSHING-REMOVER/292076672874?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Ed this is what to tool looks like, this I don't know if this tool is for mopars. Look for an older trans shop they probably will have one for a mopar. Have a bushing and seal ready for them so you don't wait for parts. I was quoted $90 labor. It's probably an hour job, labor a round here is about $90 per hour. I haven't done it to my car because after the quote my H-pipe might need to be removed. The cross over is at end of trans so it would be hot when I drove it there. More hassles, Doing other project now may remove tail shaft myself or buy the tool.

Fran, see if you can borrow that tool from someone (or maybe even a place like AutoZone?). It works like a charm! We drove it with one of my small Makita impact drivers (18V) and it was like magic, both with the old one coming out as well as the new one going in.
We jacked the car up at the rear axle both for access and to hopefully keep tranny fluid loss to a minimum. Didn't spill a drop.

 

[Fran Blacker]

Been looking for tool on ebay, asked sellers about ID/OD of the too. One out of six answered. OTC/Rotunda 307-382 is the one I will work but no answers. It's a Ford tool, Mopar doesn't have a tool like it that I know of. H-pipe on my car makes it tight to work on.