EDE 1806 drives me crazy...

[brasil]

Bought a new 1806 Ede for my 1966 Coronet...

The 1806 is a 650 cfm Carb... and my car has a 440 cui R/B engine out of a 1969 car....
So far so good..

I also installed a Innovate LC 1 to check the AFR while driving . and the AFR ´s shows like that :

Idle 12.5

Cruise 14,4

Part Time .. ( here is the Problem 15- 15.5 !)

Way to lean....

I changed the jets the needles the springs... always lean at part time acceleration...

The current set up is : Primary Jet 100 Sec. Jet 98 metering Rods 73x37 with 8 Hg springs ( the steel /plain onces ) Accelerate pump is in the middle hole )

Does someone here has a good idea ?? Perhaps going bigger with the jets ??? but then I probably will be to rich while cruising ??


Greetings from Germany
Juergen

 

[benno440]

650 tad small isn't it, why not go a holley 750.

 

[lewtot184]

if your using a vacuum advance, maybe it needs to be adjusted.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Is the engine stock and developing good idle vacuum? Approx 12-15" Hg or better? No hot cam installed?

I don't see why a 650 would have an issue on a stock 440. It will limit RPM and overall HP but aside from that it should idle and drive well at slow speeds. Are your float levels properly set. For the Edelbrock AFB's they are 7/16" (assuming that hasn't changed so check the manual). I'm just throwing that out there because proper float level is the first step to tuning a carb. Also proper fuel pressure and delivery to maintain proper fuel level. Most of these carbs are calibrated for 7-7.5 PSI at idle. The 100 jets seem a bit big so you might be compensating for low floats.

Timing will need to be addressed as well so after you check the floats and fuel pressure, get your timing curve correct. And as mention, that includes the vac advance. For starters limit the vac advance to 10 deg additional.

 

[Hemirunner]

I'm betting it's making enought vacuum at part throttle to still hold the rods down making lean. What's the A/F at WOT?

 

[brasil]

...The Timing is 10 deg BTDC at Idle... all in @ 38 deg. with Vacuum advance @ 50 deg.... so the Timing is o.k.
The floats are set to the 7/16 ( 11.1 mm ) With the stock jets ( 095 ) and rods 68x47 the cars runs way to lean.... so I went to the 0.98
... the same good idle.... more or less o.k in the cruise mode..... but if I accelerate steady ( not HARD ) the carb runs lean.. 15.0-15.6 AFR
and right now.... I stay with the 100 jets with 73x37 rods and 8 hg springs...
Vacuum @ idle is 16-17 hg.... btw. the higest Vacuum I checked with my gauge while driving was 20-23 hg while crusing....


I didnt check the WOT till now.. beacuse I am afraid of testing this, because of the lean "Powermode".... I don´t what to kill the engine....
Greetings Juergen

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Hi Mate

I ain't an expert on carb set up, but I would agree with that it may need a stronger spring. Perhaps test drive with one eye on the AFR meter and the other eye on a vacuum gauge...

 

[lewtot184]

that engine seems to be fairly efficient with those high vacuum numbers. probably doesn't need 38 degrees total. do a simple test; back the timing down to 34 degrees total and see if the a/f numbers come down.

 

[Meep-Meep]

It seems that the cruise part of the metering system is working well and you are lean when you roll on the throttle. That would indicate the power portion of the rod and not the overall jet size. A stronger spring to get the power tip of the rod into the jet sooner will help but also a rod with a smaller power tip will help. However, .037" is pretty much as small as it gets. Have you verified fuel pressure and delivery into the carb? Is your float drop set correctly?

 

[brasil]

... today I changed my primery jet.. from 100 to 104 the springs are orage ( 5 HG ) now... with 73x37 metering rods....
Idle AFR is now 12.9 cruise mode 13 and powermode is @ 13-14
looks like I am on the right track ?? I will try to get an 75x37 metering rod... then the cruise mode will be a touch leaner ...

The float level seems right closed 11.1 mm open 23.8 mm fuel presssure ( @ idle 5.5 PSI )

Greetings Juergen

 

[brasil]

stilll way to rich now.... What´s about the float level ? If I set them a tick lower.... lets say to 15 mm ?? Or should I go back to the Stock jet /needle combo and start again from there ??

Greetings Juergen

 

[Meep-Meep]

Leave the float at the factory setting. You seem pretty close if your mixture at WOT is 13:1. I'd probably look for 12.5:1 under full power mode, but you are not far off.

One thing just occurred to me is have you checked your manifold vacuum under WOT and full load? With a 4 BBL you should have 1-1.5" Hg. You might also check the mixture while getting the vac gauge reading and hopefully you are at the 1-1.5" Hg. 4 BBL carbs are rated at 1.5" Hg so that might assume that the mixture calibration from the factory is designed to be correct at that vacuum reading, so if your WOT vacuum reading is too high then it might be time for a larger carb. Contrary to popular belief a larger carb will run leaner and the opposite is true for a carb that is too small. It's all about the signal strength at the boosters.

 

[brasil]

Today I changed the float level a little bit... down to 15 mm equals 9/16 " ... the idle AFR is now @ 14 the jets were changed also.. 98 primary and 100 secondary with 70x47 metering rods.... orange springs ( 5 HG)... The AFR s are @ 14 at idle... 14 cruise and...
sadly 15-15.5 while accelerating....( to lean I think ) But I will check the Vacuum readings tomorrow.... to be sure, that the carb size is o.k. for my 440 ... who knows ??

BTW thank you meep meep for you helpful advice

Greetings Juergen

 

[Budnicks]

Is the engine stock and developing good idle vacuum? Approx 12-15" Hg or better? No hot cam installed?

I don't see why a 650 would have an issue on a stock 440. It will limit RPM and overall HP but aside from that it should idle and drive well at slow speeds. Are your float levels properly set. For the Edelbrock AFB's they are 7/16" (assuming that hasn't changed so check the manual). I'm just throwing that out there because proper float level is the first step to tuning a carb. Also proper fuel pressure and delivery to maintain proper fuel level. Most of these carbs are calibrated for 7-7.5 PSI at idle. The 100 jets seem a bit big so you might be compensating for low floats.

Timing will need to be addressed as well so after you check the floats and fuel pressure, get your timing curve correct. And as mention, that includes the vac advance. For starters limit the vac advance to 10 deg additional.

I commend you Meeps... your always so helpful & so patient with all these people having all these problems with their Edelbrock or Carter carbs... your a great knowledgeable guy

 

[Meep-Meep]

I commend you Meeps... your always so helpful & so patient with all these people having all these problems with their Edelbrock or Carter carbs... your a great knowledgeable guy

Thanks Bud! I beat my head against the wall with this crap for a lot of years and sometimes I learn something. Just happy to help plus it helps keep me sharp on the stuff. Use it or loose it!

 

[brasil]

little update

went back to the 95/98 jet sizes... with 68x42 Metering Rods.... and 8 HG springs. Now cruising at 55 mph shows an AFR of @ 14.4-14.8 idle is @ 13.8 ( the vacuum reading at 17 HG now steady ) but there is stilla little weakness when I acccelerate...
would a 68x37 Rod solve the problem ?? or should I make the spring a little longer ? Sadly there are no 9 HG springs out there

Put a 65x37 Rod in.... but then, the cruising AFR goes down to 13.5 ... so this step is way to much....

Greetings Juergen

 

[rumblefish360]

Just try it out! Why ask? This is where you learn by trying.
The combo of rod and jet provide an area the fuel
Flows through. It may take a different mix of rod and jet.
And just go to the next spring.

 

[brasil]

I would use the next spring...if there is one unfortunatly there is no 9 HG Spring offered by Edelbrock.. and also no 68x37 rod

The dilema... the 65x37 is too rich... so I am sitting between two chairs right now

Greetings Juergen

 

[brasil]

Another day with carb tuning went by.... Yesterday I made some tuning runs... with a friend of mine on the pass seat...

Again Vacuum @ idle 17 hg steady-- vac. @ cruising / coasting 23 hg vac. @ accelerating @ 14 / 15 hg WOT @ 1-2 HG

I feel the "problem "are the weak springs... my engine makes a ton of vacuum...running against rod springs.... so the metering rods stay in the "down " position during steady accelerating....only at WOT when the secondarys came in the AFR was good (@ 12 )

That´s the reason why I could change jets and metering rods...in any direction with out getting the power mode " richer ""
the springs are not strong enough to bring the pistons with the metering rods up...

So.... perhaps HOLLEY ist the answer.... they sell their powervalves in sizes that fits my vacuum..

Greetings Juergen