First Super Bee built?

[1969CoronetR/T]

This is a great read.

 

[moparedtn]

The history of the introduction of the '68 Super Bee is well-known and documented.
There simply was no Super Bee in the lineup when Dodge introduced their 1968 model lineup - in fact, there was no interest in such a car within Dodge at first.
Once the RoadRunner took off like a rocket in sales, the attitude at Dodge quickly changed and the order was given to the styling department to come up with an answer to the RoadRunner, quickly!
It took half a model year for the SuperBee to go from design studio to production, which meant mid-year introduction.
I still have a copy of the introduction bulletin Dodge sent to their dealers, stating the 'Bee would be available in February and extolling the virtues of the car, trying to stir up interest in it for dealers to pre-sale them.

Therefore...unless something really out of the ordinary has happened here...
Super Bees didn't come into production until the start of 1968 calendar year and weren't available for sale until Feb. 1968.
The Registry bears that out as well...and it means our OP's car isn't a "real" 'Bee.
Damn nice car and no doubt a damn FUN car, but not a real 'Bee.

 

[68 Super Bee]

Not a real Bee? So how do you explain the VIN if it isn't a Super Bee? The lowest sequence number part of VINs in the registry is 136231 with a SPD of January 25th. How could my VIN be so much lower? Nobody is reproducing VIN dash tags as far as I know.

 

[texas69bee]

I understand your guys skepticism but you sure got a set of balls telling a guy his car isn't real.

 

[69Coronetrt]

The history of the introduction of the '68 Super Bee is well-known and documented.
There simply was no Super Bee in the lineup when Dodge introduced their 1968 model lineup - in fact, there was no interest in such a car within Dodge at first.
Once the RoadRunner took off like a rocket in sales, the attitude at Dodge quickly changed and the order was given to the styling department to come up with an answer to the RoadRunner, quickly!
It took half a model year for the SuperBee to go from design studio to production, which meant mid-year introduction.
I still have a copy of the introduction bulletin Dodge sent to their dealers, stating the 'Bee would be available in February and extolling the virtues of the car, trying to stir up interest in it for dealers to pre-sale them.

Considering the success of the '68 Charger (~80,000 cars sold), a higher gross $ car compared to the RR (~50,000 cars sold) and for which there was no equivalent in the Plymouth line up, I don't think Dodge was too concerned about rushing out a Dodge equivalent to the RR.

Plus the WH21 didn't even come out until November so the Bee was developed rather quickly.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand your guys skepticism but you sure got a set of balls telling a guy his car isn't real.

When you have something that is out of the norm, it's best to have rock solid documentation or a plausible story.

No broadcast sheet, window sticker, IBM card, invoice or other factory document has been produced to verify this car.
No credible story has been cited.
No equivalent WM VIN or SPD has been produced.
All supporting documentation indicates a WM car was not available until after 1/1/68.
Nothing has been produced to refute the current supporting documentation.

If there is something we are missing, please provide it.

Fake VIN cars are known to exist. People have made fake VIN tags before and probably will again in the future.
Fake tag cars are known to exist.

 

[gdrill]

Nobody is reproducing VIN dash tags as far as I know.

With proper documentation and proof you can get a new VIN tag here. My example is below. It came with a project I just got. The fellow said it was a lot of emails and phone calls and showing the build sheet, fender tag and body stampings (proving the car is real). And it wasn't cheap. By no means am I implying yours is a reproduction, just pointing out they can be remade.

http://www.datatags.com/

 

[texas69bee]

If there is something we are missing, please provide it.

I wish I had something to help the guy out. I'm just not calling it out.

After another look at the registry I have to make this call.
68 Super Bee, the info, questions and doubt 69Coronetrt has provided seems to be dead on. When you look at the registry, his points are more than valid.

No broadcast sheet, window sticker, IBM card, invoice or other factory document has been produced to verify this car.
No credible story has been cited.
No equivalent WM VIN or SPD has been produced.
All supporting documentation indicates a WM car was not available until after 1/1/68.
Nothing has been produced to refute the current supporting documentation.

 

[Super Rob]

Nobody is reproducing VIN dash tags as far as I know.

Please have a look at the 4-door Cuda (that never was) Dave Walden is building. It can be done and was done.

http://4doorcuda.com/?m=201311&paged=2

 

[moparedtn]

Not a real Bee? So how do you explain the VIN if it isn't a Super Bee? The lowest sequence number part of VINs in the registry is 136231 with a SPD of January 25th. How could my VIN be so much lower? Nobody is reproducing VIN dash tags as far as I know.

Hey, I've been asking all manner of questions myself here in an effort to explain your car any other way than "someone cooked it up". I STILL think there's a valid explanation for it; other than the decals, the car is basically a Coronet 440 with heavy duty suspension, brakes and the 383HP, after all.
The Super Bee graphics could have been added later, of course, but that doesn't explain the VIN, at least not that we've discussed so far.

The fact remains the '68 Scat Pack sales literature did not have a Super Bee; further, the bulletin announcing availability of the Super Bee didn't arrive at dealers until January 1968...and then there's the graphic itself not being designed until 1968:
http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/coronet.html#superbee

As 69Coronetrt states, the WH21 car (Coronet 440 coupe) wasn't available until November and the 'Bee was based on that model, so there's that, too.

Does yours have the 11"x3" front and 11" x 2.5" rear drum brakes? Those were the standard brakes on a 'Bee. The heavy duty suspension?

I want there to be a reasonable explanation for your car, I really do. The timeframe is just too far out of whack...

 

[65-440]

was this an e-bay car ? If so, I looked at the ad a few times, very nice looking car ! enjoy it ......

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Datatags.com makes new vin plates as well as fender tags. Something does seem off with both and it would be easy to have a new ones made to match a car with those body stampings.

You could always try and contact owner of data tags and explain you bought this car and wondering if the tags were made there. He keeps track of all the ones he reproduces for legal purposes. If remade then probably a good chance cars not a real WM. Just saying

 

[68 Super Bee]

Does yours have the 11"x3" front and 11" x 2.5" rear drum brakes? Those were the standard brakes on a 'Bee. The heavy duty suspension?

Yes, it does have 11" drums front and rear

 

[moparedtn]

I wonder what Galen Govier would say? If it were mine, that would be my next step.

 

[WileE]

Why not send the car info to Mr. You-know-who guru.

I just didn't use his name

 

[moparedtn]

I just didn't use his name

I know, figured I'd be real blunt in case someone else didn't know.

Like it or not, he is considered the premier authority on Mopars, for better or worse.

 

[Timberice]

I know, figured I'd be real blunt in case someone else didn't know.

Like it or not, he is considered the premier authority on Mopars, for better or worse.

It would be best to give him a call. He lives for these types of questions and situations. He would be glad to take a look at the car....and fatten his wallet at the same time.

 

[PP1RT]

I would call datatags first before paying Gimme Govier to find out something is bogus.

 

[69Coronetrt]

I would call datatags first before paying Gimme Govier to find out something is bogus.

Let's work through the possible responses to that. Datatags would have to admit to:

1) Knowingly making a false VIN.
2) Not being competent enough to check and see if the VIN he is being asked to make is even a viable VIN.
3) Making VINs without credible documentation.

Where's the upside to Datatags giving an honest answer?

BTW...I have some skin in the game. Datatags made a bad fender tag for my car for a previous owner. I've seen some of his work he's done for people on this board. Several people have received improperly made fender tags from him for not a cheap price.

 

[PP1RT]

Let's work through the possible responses to that. Datatags would have to admit to:

1) Knowingly making a false VIN.
2) Not being competent enough to check and see if the VIN he is being asked to make is even a viable VIN.
3) Making VINs without credible documentation.

Where's the upside to Datatags giving an honest answer?

BTW...I have some skin in the game. Datatags made a bad fender tag for my car for a previous owner. I've seen some of his work he's done for people on this board. Several people have received improperly made fender tags from him for not a cheap price.

Agree 100%. He will need to go back on the seller to find out the truth of where that tag came from. There was no superbee made that early. Altering tags gets into legal stuff way over my head but if it were me i would want out of the whole car deal whether or not an attorney needs to get involved!!! Not just walk away but RUN. Too bad its a nice car....

 

[Richard Cranium]

Pretty car. Good luck with it!