Thurust bearing taken out on new build. Help

[dvw]

Half groove, correct?

Slightly more like 3/4.
Doug

 

[Road Grabber]

No need to file slots on the Clevite MS2233HG . They are notched already.
Doug

View attachment 1652604

Looking at that picture are you talking about the grooves at the top Center of the cap half bearings? What about the thrust bearing? The relief grooves on the sides? Just making sure…
I always used Clevite 77. Would you know if these bearings would be an upgrade or are they specific for high power situations?

 

[oldkimmer]

Clevite was considered an upgrade cause their a tri metal bearing which is harder/tougher than a run of the mill stock soft bearing. Kim

 

[dvw]

Looking at that picture are you talking about the grooves at the top Center of the cap half bearings? What about the thrust bearing? The relief grooves on the sides? Just making sure…
I always used Clevite 77. Would you know if these bearings would be an upgrade or are they specific for high power situationsI

In this instance the thrust was the concern. As you can see the trust surfaces are heavily relieved. Personally I like the 3/4 groove as well. Cleite has done testing for those style grooves. According to Clevite they performed better than other styles. I'm sure Clevite/Mahle knows more about bearings than all of us.
Doug

 

[Road Grabber]

Clevite was considered an upgrade cause their a tri metal bearing which is harder/tougher than a run of the mill stock soft bearing. Kim

So do you still opt to drill this bearing Kim? Or another manufacturer you are using?

 

[Road Grabber]

In this instance the thrust was the concern. As you can see the trust surfaces are heavily relieved. Personally I like the 3/4 groove as well. Cleite has done testing for those style grooves. According to Clevite they performed better than other styles. I'm sure Clevite/Mahle knows more about bearings than all of us.
Doug

Do you think this bearing would suggest using a high volume pump? Do you think this affects oil pressure? Viscosity choice?

 

[dvw]

Do you think this bearing would suggest using a high volume pump? Do you think this affects oil pressure? Viscosity choice?

Run a HV pump w 5w/25 0il. To be honest the groove won't affect pressure. The grooves are larger than the bearing clearance itself. That's what controls the leak.
Doug

 

[steve340]

Update on 505 worn out crankshaft thrust bearing I said I would post. Removed the sump and found the crank thrusts are only worn in the forward direction. I figured the crank was being pushed/loaded forward towards the radiator.
Apart from the mashed bearing shells and a worn groove in the crank the engine looks OK.
The engine has done around 1500 miles.

We found the cause of the problem.
The counter bore in the rear of the crankshaft was not deep enough for the locating snout on the torque converter. The owner did not notice the gap between the flex plate and the converter mounting fastener blocks.
When the torque converter was bolted to the flex plate the snout being bottomed out loaded the crankshaft forwards. The SFI flex plate is very thick and has no "flex" in it. The gap was around 35 to 40 thousands.
I hope this info helps someone out.

 

[Road Grabber]

What had to be done to fix this problem? The crank counterbore machined deeper? A different torque converter?
What brand/make converter was this? I would be on the phone with the manufacturer and let them know they sell something that doesn’t fit correctly. No one should have to go through this problem. I know you have to check everything but that’s a problem a buyer should have to deal with.
Glad you figured it out but that’s BS.

 

[steve340]

The crank has to come out and be metal sprayed or replaced. At this stage fairly confident it can be repaired.
I will put it in the lathe and machine the bore deeper.
You are quite right it does pay to check everything you can. The guy that owns this car is not dumb but nor is he a mechanic and unfortunately he missed this unusual and frankly pretty hard to spot issue.

 

[Road Grabber]

The crank has to come out and be metal sprayed or replaced. At this stage fairly confident it can be repaired.
I will put it in the lathe and machine the bore deeper.
You are quite right it does pay to check everything you can. The guy that owns this car is not dumb but nor is he a mechanic and unfortunately he missed this unusual and frankly pretty hard to spot issue.

I’m not familiar with metal sprayed?

And he’s sure that the converter was set properly? It’s been a long time since I’ve had an automatic but I do remember that I had to spin the converter until it dropped into the pump.

Just asking. I know that automatic cranks aren’t always drilled and reamed for pilot bushings. Could the engine have been originally for a four speed and not counterbored as much from the factory? They do skip steps to save time.

It still just doesn’t seem right that you purchase a torque converter for that application and it doesn’t fit causing a very expensive repair or ruining the engine. If I was him I’d send them the bill.

What was the brand name and converter? I’m sure others would like to have a heads up.

 

[dvw]

What had to be done to fix this problem? The crank counterbore machined deeper? A different torque converter?
What brand/make converter was this? I would be on the phone with the manufacturer and let them know they sell something that doesn’t fit correctly. No one should have to go through this problem. I know you have to check everything but that’s a problem a buyer should have to deal with.
Glad you figured it out but that’s BS.

As I stated earlier there is no rhyme or reason for this issue. Seen it with both factory and aftermarket cranks/converters. One of the biggest things to learn as a builder vs assembler is to check everything. The issue is with lack of experience. You may not know that you are missing an important check.
Doug

 

[Road Grabber]

I understand check everything. Still makes no sense that a part is sold for an application and doesn’t fit.
If someone has the engine still in the car you have to get under the car check the converter up against the crank? Or measure the crank before you try to install?

If it doesn’t fit return it? Stupid.

Can’t agree with letting a vendor off the hook selling a part that doesn’t fit. Or there’s something more to the story…

 

[Fran Blacker]

I understand check everything. Still makes no sense that a part is sold for an application and doesn’t fit.
If someone has the engine still in the car you have to get under the car check the converter up against the crank? Or measure the crank before you try to install?

If it doesn’t fit return it? Stupid.

Can’t agree with letting a vendor off the hook selling a part that doesn’t fit. Or there’s something more to the story…

This was a QC problem and unfortunately it wasn't caught when assembled. If converter is at fault you can try to get Mfg to compensate for problem but don't think you'll get any. I bought a cam and lifters for a hemi I was building I got lucky when I looked at the lifters. One lifter the snap ring that holds pushrod seat in place had no groove for snap ring. It was just sitting there, shipped it back.

 

[steve340]

The torque converter was made by Dominator in Australia. I am not sure who manufactured the crankshaft at this point I do not have the engine stripped down yet. The engine is stroked out so it is for sure not stock crank.
Either component could be the problem main cause. I am just going to turn the crank hole deeper so it can't happen again.
As mentioned in a previous post getting compensation from a parts manufacturer in this case would be next to impossible - the owner will just have to suck it up.

 

[steve340]

Yes the converter was in the transmission correctly. The trans has been stripped just to make sure it is OK.
It's not but that is another issue.

 

[Road Grabber]

Sometimes it’s hard moving forward on these projects. Anytime I’ve had issues it’s always an aftermarket part or something other than mopar performance. Great stuff out there now but extra checking and inspection for sure. Thanks for sharing.

 

[oldkimmer]

Question for u guys. If there wasn’t enough clearance between the converter and the crank how did they spin the converter to bolt it up to the flex plate. I suppose there is a bare minimum for clearance. Or was the converter ballooning? I’ve never had this issue. But I do drill the rear of the thrust bearing into the oil passage to oil the crank thrust area. A .060 hole is sufficient. Kim

 

[dvw]

I wouldn't install any unused converter in anything without test fitting it to the crank. It's a 2 minute check that can save big problems. People can complain about quality all they want. But that doesn't save them from taking back apart or worse. Be smart check every unused part you intend to install first. I've just had 2 heater cores from 2 different sources that don't fit my 67 Gladiator. Or how about the rocker arms for a 3.6 Pentastar that were made with the tips 2mm down towards the valve. No compression due to the fact the valves wouldn't shut. There is tons of stuff that's not right.
Doug

 

[steve340]

I agree with dvw.
It pays to assume nothing is made right and check all you can.