Good Stuff is Still Out There

[Bruzilla]

I got a call from my speed shop on Friday telling me they had another customer who might be interested in buying the 360 out of my Road Runner. The deal is I'm planning on having them rebuild and install a 440 into the car and I had told them if they can find a buyer for my engine then whatever money I can get for the 360 would go into the 440 effort, which would free up more of my money to pay for more enhancements to the engine, so it's a win-win for both of us. Anyway, they thought they had a buyer a month ago, but the deal fell through.

So I swing by the shop, and there's a gorgeous 1972 yellow/black Fury sitting in there. Until it was towed to the shop, it hadn't budged an inch since 1989 when the owner died and it even still had the 89 sticker on the tag. The only rust is some quarter-sized surface rust areas in the upper-rear corners of the door wells, and the interior looks like new. The car has just over 80k miles on it, so it was driven well less than 5k miles a year. It has a 360 two barrel in it, but the engine is frozen up solid after sitting for so long.

The car was sitting in the former owner's widow's garage for all those years, and the outside is covered with dirt and dust, but aside from the engine it's a fantastic car. And the price... $0! The widow was selling her home to move into a retirement community and just wanted the car gone so she gave it to the new owner who's just a car guy from her neighborhood! So anyone who thinks that barn finds are a myth, or that there still aren't a lot of great cars sitting around waiting to be discovered, keep thinking that! As for me, I'm going to start being a whole lot nicer to the seniors in my area.

 

[67Satty]

My brother-in-law mowed his elderly neighbor lady's lawn for free for years and years. When she got too old to drive anymore, she gave him a 1965 4 door Coronet with just 16,000 miles on it. He drove it for awhile and then gave it to me. So be nice to your eldery neighbors!

 

[Budnicks]

why not do some of the work yourself ??

So anyone who thinks that barn finds are a myth, or that there still aren't a lot of great cars sitting around waiting to be discovered, keep thinking that! As for me, I'm going to start being a whole lot nicer to the seniors in my area.

I can totally believe there are some great barn finds out there still... it's the you being a whole lot nicer to anyone, is what's hard to believe...LOL... I'm sorry Bruzilla I couldn't resist... Why don't you do the 440 build & swap yourself ?? I'm just curious, you could save a ton of cash, for many other pieces/upgrades, if you have the Knowledge/ability & the space to do the work, that is...

 

[Bruzilla]

Primarily because the whole methodology of my project car is to disprove the notion that getting a vintage Mopar on the road costs so much that it isn't feasible for most people. I got the engine and transmission for $300, and I've spent another $300 or so on parts (header, carb, alternator, PS bracket, motor mounts, etc) that the engine needed. I also got some additional parts for free (a MP cam/lifter kit) and some parts I can't use, like a SB kickdown that I think I can get $150 or so for on ebay.

Right now, the estimate for doing some machine work on the drive shaft, replacing the bearings, recamming, and swapping the engines is $1,350 barring any unknowns that pop up once the engine is apart. It was just rebuilt three years ago so I'm guessing those will be minimal, but you never know. Plus I'm expecting another $125 in expenses for getting a late-model Police Interceptor aluminum driveshaft and having it modified., so I'm estimating $1,475 to do the job right now. If I get my asking price of $1,100 for the engine, $150 for the kickdown, and $200 for the SB 727 I have in the car, plus another $200 or so for the SB alternator/brackets, PS brackets, and driveshaft I'll have left over, I should be at about $1,650 in other peoples' money to use for this effort. If I stay on budget, the total cost of parts and labor will be about $2,075, so my out-of-pocket costs for swapping from a 360 to a nicely built-up, 450 HP or so 440, will be $425, or just a little more than what some people pay for a new carb.

 

[Budnicks]

Bruzilla; I get your concept of trying to save as much as possible, building a Mopar project of any kind, but your still paying or trading something or someone else to do the work, labor is very expensive & that really eats into the budget, especially if you can do some of the work yourself, irregardless of anything else, any great deals or sales, you may come across... I was asking &/or curious, can't you do some of the work yourself ??, do you have the knowledge, tools &/or place to do the work ??, IMHO you can ultimately save even some more money, to prove or disprove your point/concept, of building a Mopar project on the cheap...

 

[747mopar]

I agree, so much of the money to be saved is in the labor. You have great resources right hear to walk you threw any issues that might pop up. Hope you have better luck than me, I'm doing almost everything myself but because I'm so **** about fixing & modifying absolutely everything I'm WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY past my budget. I don't care though I'm getting absolutely everything I wanted including a **** eating grin you couldn't wipe off with a brillo pad. Good luck

 

[Basket case]

pics or it didn't happen...:grin:

 

[Bruzilla]

Bruzilla; I get your concept of trying to save as much as possible, building a Mopar project of any kind, but your still paying or trading something or someone else to do the work, labor is very expensive & that really eats into the budget, especially if you can do some of the work yourself, irregardless of anything else, any great deals or sales, you may come across... I was asking &/or curious, can't you do some of the work yourself ??, do you have the knowledge, tools &/or place to do the work ??, IMHO you can ultimately save even some more money, to prove or disprove your point/concept, of building a Mopar project on the cheap...

The concept is not to save as much money as possible. The concept is to show that getting a nice Mopar on the road isn't as expensive as a lot of people make it out to be. Can I swap an engine out myself and save a lot of money? Sure, but that's not the point since the average person entering this hobby can't. Can I rebuild an engine myself and save a lot of money? Sure, but the average person lacks the skills and all the tools needed to do it. The concept is not saving money as much as it is spending your money wisely and making smart choices. Do you call Jegs and pay $400 for a new carb, or keep checking craigslist and find one someone rebuilt for a project effort that died and buy it for $50? Do you pay $45 for a set of alternator brackets and $70 for an alternator even on ebay, or do you wait a bit and get an alternator and brackets for $40 off ebay? Do you pay for everything out of your own pocket, or do you find a way to use other peoples' money? Any fool can waste a ton of money on a car and complain about how expensive the process is, but my goal is to show guys, especially younger ones, that if you use your head and make maximum use of your resources, you can get the car you want and be able to afford it even if you don't have years of expertise, a garage full of tools, or a huge bank account.

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pics or it didn't happen...:grin:

There's only one person who needs to know something happened, and that's me... and I'll know it when I see that 440 in the engine bay purring like a kitten in a month or so. Even so, feel free to read my post on how I got the car and got it on the road here http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ect-Pittsbird-Almost-Done&highlight=pittsbird

I'll be doing a similar post once I get the engine in, car back home, and tally up all the final costs.

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Hope you have better luck than me, I'm doing almost everything myself but because I'm so **** about fixing & modifying absolutely everything I'm WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY past my budget. I don't care though I'm getting absolutely everything I wanted including a **** eating grin you couldn't wipe off with a brillo pad. Good luck

And that's sort of the problem. You're way past budget and still grinning, which is a luxury most people, especially the younger crowd, can't afford. I had budgeted this project to cost $2,000, and when I found I could get over half of that paid for by someone else, my immediate reaction was great!!! that gives me another $1,000+ to use on doing even more to the engine, but I had to check myself back on that. I had to put aside all those visions of ported/polished heads, better rockers, and other goodies because the goal was to keep within budget.

The one thing I so dearly miss is having access to the base auto hobby shops I had when I was in the Navy. Man... if I still had access to one of those, the sky would be the limit. But for this project, I had to take into account that most people don't have access to facilities like those.

 

[Basket case]

actually I meant a pic of the Fury..:toothy9:

 

[arsinist01]

I know there are cars out there to be had. The problem is dealing with all the bs to find a decent one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. And I'm certainly not waiting for one to be given to me lol.

 

[Budnicks]

I think your doing a cool concept for you... I'm of the thinking, "my time is worth allot of $$$$ too", sitting in front of the computer for days, weeks or years, searching price shopping parts takes allot of time & serious commitment, even money in the long run, you have to have a Computer, Electricity, an Internet connection, Phone, place to ship to, place to do it at & the time to do it, etc.... I don't think everyone should do what I do either... I believe smart purchasing, the 1st time & have an outline/plan, so you don't have re-purchase or to redo projects over, because of poor planing/purchasing... I know I'm probably not the average no-nothen' Joe Smoe or a "know it all" either, I grew up around cars, fabrication & tools, had someone great help & teaching me along the way, the right & wrong way, to go about a project too... I also personally like "new parts" & not some, usually the A-Typical, rusty-overpriced, broken or not properly rebuilt/built, used-up, worn-out crap, that are usually the reasons for selling parts too sometimes, in the 1st place, let alone an honest description & quality, then the big $$$$ shipping costs of buying & selling used parts all over the country side {that many new parts don't have, with severely discounted or free shipping, Summit, Jegs, whomever, can make a big difference in cost VS value}, just to save a few bucks, "doesn't really cut it for me"... I'm not all that patient, but much better than when I was younger, but I'm also not 16-18 y/o anymore either... I guess if I was really young, really old, didn't want to do the work myself, on a fixed income, working for peanuts, even just dead broke {then I wouldn't/shouldn't, be building a car in the 1st place} & didn't know how to do my own work or if I didn't have a place to work on stuff or the knowledge & tools to perform said tasks... Then maybe, I might try to spread it out over a much longer period of time or budget & try to bargain shop more, on the cheap for every single little part... I see allot of the cheapskate/tight-wad factor today, in many builders, feeding on the less fortunate, taking advantages & way too damn many price shoppers {especially among MoPar guys, it's always been like that & I don't know why}, they won't pay **** or the true worth/value for some other guys decent parts, that are worth what they are asking & then they turn around & want a ton of cash, for their rusty-old, used-up, striped holes/bolts, missing-parts, broken/worn-out, used-parts, in many buyers/seller in the hobby today... Pay a fair & reasonable price, ask a fair & reasonable price & get/sell a good quality/decent valued product for the price VS value, would be a really nice concept...LOL... Believe me, I'm not a fat cat wealthy guy either, "far from it", I do as much as I can myself, mainly because I don't trust others to do it how I would or could {my **** retentive mentality}, I save a ton of cash that way & I always have, whether it's a beloved MoPar or what ever Brand X... I know it's the only way, how I can justify building any type car {especially when I was raising a family}, let alone, the much more expensive MoPars of any kind {I know, there are exception to the rule}... Just teaching the youth, the tradition of learning how to properly buy, sell, build & repair or maintain, "their own cars", is a dying trend/breed now, it's the instant gratification generation right now, it needs to be reversed or the hobby will ultimately die... IMHFO just teaching them to that they can ultimately learn to do the work, "easily themselves", gain some great knowledge, sweat equity & self pride in their beloved project, they will take far better care of it, is a far better concept, for all parties concerned, if they learn how to do the work themselves... So many nightmare stories about repair shops cutting corners or slow & very costly labor/production levels, I have a big mis-trust factor anymore... Most real car guys are extremely willing to help, when they can, especially with the knowledge.... But the tools, the place to work & loaning out their manuals, probably not so much...LOL... IMHFO generally you get what you pay for, "most all the time", in my experiences anyway... The do it yourself crowd, that do the research & finding parts, building the car yourself is far more gratifying/rewarding, far more pride, than just someone else doing the work for you... I know not everyone can do the work or have the knowledge & tools or a place to even be able do the work, then the price shopping & farming out labor or doing swaps & bartering, then is a viable alternitive... Bruzilla good luck with your 360ci to the 440ci & 727tf engine transmission swap, in your Pitt/Steeler's themed 3rd gen RR...

 

[daredevil]

pics or it didn't happen...:grin:

agreed

 

[YY1]

They ARE still out there, and you CAN get a smokin' good deal if you educate yourself about true values and the market conditions that dictate them, both nationally and locally.

The trick on restoring/reparing, is to figure out what's more cost effective (not necessarily cheapest) to do your self and what's more cost effective to farm out.

I actually coined the term "resource effective" at my workplace, to explain the combination of dollar cost of goods plus cost in time of man-hours to install and maintain. There had been a rash of people buying complex and difficut to maintain systems because they got a "good deal", but they never bothered to calculate the cost of the labor to keep them operational.

 

[kb67mopar]

Last year we pulled a 68 Fury III out of a garage it had sat in since 94 when the owner died. Sounded a lot like the one described, perfect interior and minor exterior rust. $500 was all he paid for the car and had it drivable for under $100.

 

[Bruzilla]

actually I meant a pic of the Fury..:toothy9:

I wanted to take some pics of that car when I was at the shop, but without the owner giving consent I didn't know if he would object or not. I'll see if I can get some pics the next time I'm over there.

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I know there are cars out there to be had. The problem is dealing with all the bs to find a decent one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. And I'm certainly not waiting for one to be given to me lol.

I do a lot of driving around on the weekends. Just mark off an area on a map and go out and cruise around, look in peoples' yards, back yards, garages and barns (if they're open), and see what there is. Last week I came across an old house with a car sitting next to it in the carport. It's covered and has the general shape of a 68-70 Road Runner but could be a GTO or some other GM POS. All I know for sure is it's yellow and has Magnum 500 rims on it. It's sitting nose high, so the engine is missing. I was thinking this weekend I might stop by and see if the owner's home and talk to them about it.

I've just found that Rule Number One is never ask if a car like that is for sale! Never, ever! I just open with "I was driving by and saw your car, and as you can see I'm into old cars and just wondered what it was." and let the conversation grow from there. If it's for sale, they'll bring it up.

 

[Bruzilla]

Just teaching the youth, the tradition of learning how to properly buy, sell, build & repair or maintain, "their own cars", is a dying trend/breed now, it's the instant gratification generation right now, it needs to be reversed or the hobby will ultimately die... IMHFO just teaching them to that they can ultimately learn to do the work, "easily themselves", gain some great knowledge, sweat equity & self pride in their beloved project, they will take far better care of it, is a far better concept, for all parties concerned, if they learn how to do the work themselves.

I'm with you 100%. The only problem is before any of that can happen, we have to get them into the cars, and that's where the problem I'm attempting to address lies. The conventional wisdom out there is classic cars are a rich man's game and it's too expensive for young people to get into the hobby, and that is 100% BS. There's nothing I enjoy more than when I go to a show, or even to McDonalds, and have some kid come up and say "man, I wish I had a car like that!" and when I tell them they can, they say "I could never afford a ride like that.". Then I ask them how much they paid for the car they are driving now, and most of the time it's more than what I have into my car, and when I tell them I have less than $6k invested in my car I start to see the wheels turning.

These kids don't realize you don't need years of technical know how, garages full of tools, or a bank account full of money to have a nice vintage car. You just need some smarts on how to get what you want for a price you can afford. Remember these are kids who are driving cars that require investing $2,000 or so just to get a 10% HP gain. When they find out they can get those gains for $200 or so, they start getting interested in learning how to do it. But we first have to get them into a car.

I just helped a 19-yr old guy who came up to me at the Budweiser car show last November get into a 66 Satellite last Monday. He was one of those guys who said "I could never afford..." back then, and now he has a decent Satellite for $3k. It has a 318 in it right now, but he's already mapping out a plan to upgrade that once he gets the paint & body done. I gotta say, I envy this kid. Back when I got my first Mopars it was with the full knowledge I was going to be losing pretty much every dime I put into them. Guys like Danny are able to be confident that they will likely make back most of the money they put in.. assuming they don't pay crazy prices.

 

[Propwash]

I agree....Love to see more of the younger generation grabbing onto the old rides and running with them. 2 of the big limiting factors are location and year/type of car. There's no need to beat around the bush, 68-70 B-Bodies are the most sought after (B-Body wise), thus typically the most expensive right out of the gate. Prior or post to that are much more of a reality, but then parts/metal availability becomes an issue. Location, unlike what you have still living on the streets in Florida, in my neck of the woods there is not a quarter of the cars surviving. Forget about going to a junk yard for parts. This drives up the initial cost. On top of that, those cars still alive, but at a project level just don't need a little work around the wheel houses and a floor pan patch or something. Typically they're in need of serious work, ie; full quarters-skins, full pans and flip a coin if the frame rails are salvageable.

So the odds of a younger person being able to front the initial cash is one thing. The huge cost of sheetmetal is usually the next deal killer. A pair of full quarters (if you can get them) typically run $1000-1500, skins $500-700. If they can't install them themselves, well another $2000-$3000 at a body shop. Usually when the Quarters are junk so goes with that the trunk pan, extensions, outer wheelhouses, window openings, floor pans, X-member and possibly the rockers..ect...ect... Frame rails may be toast in back as well. Another $2500-$3000 in sheetmetal. Repair shop will add another $3000-$5000. So, that's just the sheetmetal side of things. Toss in suspension, brakes, electrical, Interior, wiring, body-paint, Engine and drivetrain.....Well, easily 20K all said and done, if you really got some smoking deals, did a lot yourself and didn't expect to have an actual "show car", but more of something to go to shows with, but not expecting any trophies.

I have younger folks approach me quite a bit with my past and present cars..A lot of them really want that '69 Charger, or '70 Roadrunner, Superbee...whatever. I honestly tell them, unless you have a Load of money and/or some mad skills, forget about it. No need to give anyone false hopes. That's reality. One of those projects around here in need of major work/parts/metal will run you $3500-$6000 from the get go. Usually I tell them best bet is to find a '70-74 A-Body, post 71' B-Body in halfway decent (maybe even running-driving shape) for around 5-8K and work on it a bit at a time from there...E-Bodies, forget about it and the prior '68 will be quite a task to find metal/parts for. I think in the deep south or dry southwest collector cars are much more of something in a younger persons grasp. Around here, not so much....I can't even remember the last time I seen someone in their late teens-early twenties driving anything Mopar 66-74, besides one kid driving a 4 door 74' Dart custom deluxe last year.

 

[Budnicks]

cars availability VS weather & locations

:iamwithstupid: Prop very well said, agree pretty much 100%, here in California, southwest & parts of the southeast or in Florida we are kind of lucky to have some more of the survivor cars still available with out total rust bucket repairs {still some thou}, other parts of the country not so lucky unfortunately... But we have to deal with all the high prices, the masses of population & the rest of the BS that come with living in California & Florida warmer type climates too... Prop, Now that you brought it up, I don't think, I've seen any younger X-Box generation youth/people, driving any classics, of any kind lately, let alone the much more rare & costly MoPar's... we have some bad snow & stuff too thou, 9" of snow @ 2500ft elevation in about 4 hrs time, Tuesday allot more in the high country, I was up at Twain Harte at my Uncles house, we were playing cards & got about 18" of snow in that same 4 hr period of time Tuesday 2-19-2013, that nasty storm is making it's way East, as we speak... stay warm guys/gals

 

[Bruzilla]

I honestly tell them, unless you have a Load of money and/or some mad skills, forget about it. No need to give anyone false hopes. That's reality. One of those projects around here in need of major work/parts/metal will run you $3500-$6000 from the get go.

And there's the rub Prop. The first thing I would ask you to remember is you're not a kid entering the hobby. Your focus is on how much it costs to restore a car, not drive it. When I bought my first Road Runner in 1979, the very last thing I had on my mind was restoring it. I wanted to get out on the street and use it to get from point A to B and have fun on the weekends. So what has changed for kids these days? There's a kid in my neighborhood who owns a 70-something Chevelle. Rough as a frigging cob, but he loves driving that car around town, to work, and God knows what else. He doesn't care the thing is a rust bucket in the quarters and missing most of the grill. Someone sold him on the idea driving around in a beat up 70s muscle car was better than driving a beat up Honda or whatever, and he found an entry-level car he could afford. He comes by my house every now and again when he has a problem, and I tell him to first get himself a Road Runner, but he's happy as a clam in a car that most of us wouldn't want to be seen in our driveways. The simple truth is you do need a Load of money to restore a car, but not to get one on the road. Nor do you need to even be considering restoration to get your foot in the door of the hobby.

I was out at an old-time Mopar guy's house yesterday picking up a 727 transmission he was selling. He had founded a local Mopar club years ago, and ended up dropping out because the way many members acted around the new guys. Some new guy would show up at a meet with a rusty, dinged-up, barely running car he had just drug out of someone's back yard, and a lot of folks in the club would just start tearing into the guy about how his car was a POS, or unoriginal, or the guy needed to get busy fixing this and that, etc. They couldn't just say "welcome to the club pal, and we love seeing another old Mopar on the road." The new guy would leave and never be seen again. I'm not suggesting you would do that, but I would suggest telling someone who's looking to get into this hobby about the huge costs of restoration isn't a good idea when few of us had restoration on the mind when we entered the hobby. Our minds were on getting the cars on the road, which is why I've been trying to help newcomers see that they don't need a lot of money, tools, or mechanical know-how to make that happen.

 

[Propwash]

X-Box Generation...LOL Sad isn't it? Honestly the odds are stacked against them...Be it the costs, but in general just the mentality and how they're raised. I guess that could be a whole new discussion. A lot of folks here have a bunch of years on me, but even then just the fella's 10-15 years under me seem like they're from a different country. There are still good kids out there, but a majority think everything should be handed to them on a silver platter and work.....work, my god...why should I have to do that? Picking up a sawzall, die grinder or a spot weld cutter is just something that almost all don't want to do.

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I see your point Bruzilla...and I agree with a fix'er upper tooling down the road. Surely most of us would welcome anyone any younger chap with such an animal. The subject of your theory mentioned is not that type of car. Maybe I got off base but I thought the basis was about a decent looking, running/driving mopar for a low budget. A rusted up Chevelle going down the road is a different ball game. Pick one up, do a little brake/engine/suspension work for a couple grand and your rolling. I totally agree that is feasible, but as far as spending 6K total project cost on something around here...well, most would refrain to pulling into a car show or brag about how decent their car looks, because honestly most wouldn't be too receptive to that concept. You're right, restoring a car is one thing, freshening up a car is another. I guess the meat and potato's is; what is considered a "nice" or "decent" car. If I was a bow tie snot nosed 16 year old kid with a holy Chevelle, heck...I would call it "nice" The outside world would be yelling haul it to the crusher. My mindset (which has always been the same mindset) is to do it right. A car with a shady suspension, flip a coin brakes, half lunged engine with mud under the paint and a undercoated engine bay is not "decent". For your budget price, around my neck of the woods, that is exactly what you would have. I have no problem with those cars and the folks driving them, everyone has to live within their means. The point I was trying to get across (Which you quoted me on) was those kids looking for a 68-70 Roadrunner, Charger, Coronet/superbee have to be dealt a dose of reality. Up here Major sheetmetal repair is a reality...No Parts to be found is a reality...Care Rareity is a reality. Those are gigantic costs.