Help me fix lean on power issue - Holley 4150

[wsutard]

That’s where the 10-32 set screws come into play. You add a restriction to the transfer slot feed and it will lean your cruise. You need more initial timing also than 12 degrees.

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What about doing the opposite? Set my jets so that it cruises at the right AF but then drill out my PVCRs to allow for more fuel on acceleration (low vacuum)?

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

What about doing the opposite? Set my jets so that it cruises at the right AF but then drill out my PVCRs to allow for more fuel on acceleration (low vacuum)?

Your thinking is off, under normal cruise you’re running down the road on the transfer slots not the jets. That’s why it’s still pig rich at cruise with the 72’s. Then when you activate the main circuit it’s going lean because you don’t have enough jet. This is my car going down the road with a 1050 Dominator. The jets have little to no effect at this rpm under steady low load cruise. These carbs are notoriously fat out of the box. Careful attention to proper air bleeds and restrictions and it goes down the road like fuel injection.

 

[wsutard]

Your thinking is off, under normal cruise you’re running down the road on the transfer slots not the jets. That’s why it’s still pig rich at cruise with the 72’s. Then when you activate the main circuit it’s going lean because you don’t have enough jet.

FYI, The 72s are rich because I bumped up the float level. Prior to doing so they were a nice cruise of 12-13.

However, I see your point. You’re logic seems sound since as soon as I get into the main jets I’m seeing af immediately get lean.

So, based on your logic, I need to size my jets for proper af under acceleration first. Second, I need to adjust the transfer slot to reduce fuel flowing through that circuit by reducing the orifice size you point out in your pics?

Is there an aftermarket metering block that already has adjustable transfer slot orifices?

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

No, size the jets for steady state at high speeds where the circuit is on. Then tune the PVCR, for high load acceleration.

you can put an aftermarket block in it or drill and tap yours. The TSR has to be in the main body. The IFR is in the metering block. The restriction for the transferslot is something you have to experiment with. Low .070’s to start

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

Lots of good reading here

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/racingfuelsystems/holley-f25/

 

[beanhead]

Reporting back on the float level change.

Bumped it up to the level in the picture. It is helping with the lean out on acceleration but I can tell that all it is really doing is richening up everything. So now my cruise is rich again. I’ll be cruising at 11af and when I give it accelerator I can see the gauge start to rise up to about 14 and then it falls back to 11 when I stop applying pedal.

I’m not certain that raising the float is actually what I want as it seems like the float level is just masking the problem. I feel like I should be able to set my jets from proper cruising af and also have enough fuel when I need it for acceleration.

Another issue that is telling me that I am probably just masking the problem is that when I floor it or provide quick large pedal my af still drops to —- I lose power and then it violently comes back.

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Yeah that float level is too high..not the answer.

That’s where the 10-32 set screws come into play. You add a restriction to the transfer slot feed and it will lean your cruise. You need more initial timing also than 12 degrees.

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Absolutely on the timing! Not having that correct throws eeeeverything off..

-Advance your distributor, until the RPM and/or vacuum start to peak and level off. Then you can back it off a couple degrees if desired. You'll have to (most likely) drop your idle speed screws some, which will be good for getting your transfer slots covered...looks like a total do-over but don't sweat it, 68 knows his sheeat with carbs. Once the timing's dialed, t-lots good and jets corrected you may not even need to get tooo crazy with the drill

 

[beanhead]

FWIW I threw in a quick-fuel 9.5 ....bingo. That got me right where I needed to be. The quick fuel ones have four slots to flow fuel instead of just two, how much of a diff that makes, I don't know. Sorry you've got more work to do to get there but I bet it'll be a monster!

 

[coloradodave]

You mean the float level?

Yes...

 

[coloradodave]

You might be putting too much faith in your A/F gauge. I've had both brands of the common gauges and they are both slow to react. Any tipping of the throttle shows lean for an instant. IMO, the thing you want to concentrate on is the steady cruising A/F at the rpm you normally run at and the A/F at sustained wide open throttle. Cruising at 30mph and 11:1 ratio will drain your tank fast. If you are lean at sustained wide open throttle it's something to be concerned with. I still use the A/F gauge to set the idle, but rely on plug coloring after a wide open run to determine a too lean condition... old school for an old guy I guess.

 

[rrTor-Red]

Lots of videos on Youtube

 

[wsutard]

All good info guys! Im learning a ton about carbs. Mainly that I should switch to fuel injection! (Does money still grow on trees?)

Reporting back on changes:
Changes made:
Swapped in the 76 jets (from 72)
Swapped in the 8.5 PV (from 10)
Moved the float level back down to half

Took a drive and it doesn’t lean out on acceleration but I’m kind of rich on cruise which is what I was trying to fix in the first place. Video of cruise is below (sorry for the vertical video). I’ll go take a longer drive a little later when the traffic dies down.



@beanhead @68 HEMI GTS regarding my advance. When I had the engine dynoed it liked 33 all in. Anything more and it didn’t respond or lost some power. 33 all in is 12ish at idle for me. I do have a new MSD distributor so I might be able to change he the all in number and get a higher idle advance. I’ll look into it.

@coloradodave Im rather certain the my gauge is very accurate as I have felt lean surges that correspond to exactly what the gauge is telling me. However, this also crosses my mind prior.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

All good info guys! Im learning a ton about carbs. Mainly that I should switch to fuel injection! (Does money still grow on trees?)

Reporting back on changes:
Changes made:
Swapped in the 76 jets (from 72)
Swapped in the 8.5 PV (from 10)
Moved the float level back down to half

Took a drive and it doesn’t lean out on acceleration but I’m kind of rich on cruise which is what I was trying to fix in the first place. Video of cruise is below (sorry for the vertical video). I’ll go take a longer drive a little later when the traffic dies down.



@beanhead @68 HEMI GTS regarding my advance. When I had the engine dynoed it liked 33 all in. Anything more and it didn’t respond or lost some power. 33 all in is 12ish at idle for me. I do have a new MSD distributor so I might be able to change he the all in number and get a higher idle advance. I’ll look into it.

@coloradodave Im rather certain the my gauge is very accurate as I have felt lean surges that correspond to exactly what the gauge is telling me. However, this also crosses my mind prior.

Yes, leave total the same. Shorten the curve with more initial. Back to the carb, it would really help to know all the orifice sizes including the air bleeds. Takes numbered drills though to do that. It doesn’t look that far off, just gonna take more than jets to get it really tuned in.

 

[wsutard]

Yes, leave total the same. Shorten the curve with more initial. Back to the carb, it would really help to know all the orifice sizes including the air bleeds. Takes numbered drills though to do that. It doesn’t look that far off, just gonna take more than jets to get it really tuned in.

I was wrong on my advance. Forgot I bumped it to 18 initial and 36 all in. No ping.

I’m at the point where I don’t want to dial down the jets anymore for fear of lean out on acceleration but I’m still low 11 high 10 on cruise rpm.

Question, what effect will enlarging the PCVR provide? I know it only comes into play once I drop below 8.5 vacuum. But will that help me fatten up my acceleration on the primaries if I jet down some more to get a better cruise?
If so will it fatten up my entire band of acceleration on primaries only?

Also, anyone used an aftermarket metering block like this? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-67166c/

From research it looks like my other option is to keep my jets where they are and drill holes in my butterflies to allow more air during cruise.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

Holes in the butterflies are for idle issues. They provide bypass air to keep the throttle plates closed enough so the carb stays on the idle circuit. They won’t change the cruise A/F. Enlarging the PVCR will fatten the carb up anytime the vacuum is low enough for the PV to open. It’s the same as adding jet. Usually that’s for heavy acceleration. You need to decrease fuel draw through your idle/transfer circuit for your low RPM issue. There’s 3 ways to accomplish this. Smaller IFR’s, more idle air bleed, and transfer slot restriction. Can takes a combination of adjustment on all 3 depending on the calibration of the carb. Aftermarket metering block doesn’t have any advantage unless your willing to start modifying orifices.

 

[wsutard]

Update, still no fix. Here is what I have done lately and what I am experiencing.

Purchased a proform metering block with adjustable PVCRs.
Jetted down from 78 to 72 (cruise a/f is good at 72 but is even a tad rich.)
Enlarged the adjustable PVCRs from stock of .070” to .085”.

Zero change to the lean out issue. However, I can tell that it is getting much more fuel from the PVC once the lean out goes away.

To clarify the issue, I lean out as soon as I give ANY throttle. 1% throttle change will lean me out to above 18a/f until the extra fuel comes.

I believe that my issue is only at the transition from cruise to pvc fuel flowing.

I thought this is what the accelerator pump was for, however, I have increased to a 40 nozzle on the pump and ensured that it was calibrated correctly and that the pump was working.

I have not touched the cam of the accelerator pump. I’m still on the stock black. Maybe there is a can that squirts fuel earlier than the black?

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

That’s because you keep jetting it way to lean.

 

[wsutard]

That’s because you keep jetting it way to lean.

Im getting all mixed up on this. I just reread your posts and I didnt even address what you suggested. Where do I pick up orifices that small?

 

[beanhead]

Update, still no fix. Here is what I have done lately and what I am experiencing.

Purchased a proform metering block with adjustable PVCRs.
Jetted down from 78 to 72 (cruise a/f is good at 72 but is even a tad rich.)
Enlarged the adjustable PVCRs from stock of .070” to .085”.

Zero change to the lean out issue. However, I can tell that it is getting much more fuel from the PVC once the lean out goes away.

To clarify the issue, I lean out as soon as I give ANY throttle. 1% throttle change will lean me out to above 18a/f until the extra fuel comes.

I believe that my issue is only at the transition from cruise to pvc fuel flowing.

I thought this is what the accelerator pump was for, however, I have increased to a 40 nozzle on the pump and ensured that it was calibrated correctly and that the pump was working.

I have not touched the cam of the accelerator pump. I’m still on the stock black. Maybe there is a can that squirts fuel earlier than the black?

Every engine likes a different pump cam, that said I've never liked the black one...it always seems weak. Experiment. Stick a blue one in, start back on a 31 squirter, re-calibrate the pump arm and just see how you like it.
It won't fix the other stuff most likely bit you may like the response.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

Every engine likes a different pump cam, that said I've never liked the black one...it always seems weak. Experiment. Stick a blue one in, start back on a 31 squirter, re-calibrate the pump arm and just see how you like it.
It won't fix the other stuff most likely bit you may like the response.

Blue 427 is my fav too!

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/112101582582

You prob don’t need a bag of 100 but that’s the size.

Tap and insert like this. Start with .078 and work your way down as needed

Use 6-32 for the idle feeds. Tap and Put them in the low spot.