Hot running 440 60" over

[Jeff Peterson]

I will tell you my experience put a bigger water pump pulley on it to increase the speed of the water pump. I had a customer we built a 512 stroker on pump gas, for a 4x4 truck and he wanted a serpentine belt system. The engine ran hot, swapped out radiators, high flow pumps, even took the heads back off and opened up the coolant holes in the head and block, changed to a bigger pulley problem solved. just use a stock A/C water pump. From your picture the pulley looks small to me.

You have it backwards
To increase the RPM of your driven pulley, you can either increase the motor RPM or decrease the diameter of the driven pulley.

 

[Armyvet25]

My '62 convertible had a .060 over 440 with AC. I used the factory radiator, shroud, fan and fan clutch. With a 180 thermostat it never exceeded 180 idling or on the highway.

agree..
same here, race built 383 cammed-stroked, stock fan and radiator, never over 180-185
Ditch the electric fans, quadruple check the timing, maybe to much at high rpm, might need to re-curve the distributor so when you set you initial timing then you can dial in max around 36-38 obviously depending on your build. Make sure your not running lean at high rpm's, might want to install an air to fuel ratio gauge.

 

[Phoenix440]

agree..
same here, race built 383 cammed-stroked, stock fan and radiator, never over 180-185
Ditch the electric fans, quadruple check the timing, maybe to much at high rpm, might need to re-curve the distributor so when you set you initial timing then you can dial in max around 36-38 obviously depending on your build. Make sure your not running lean at high rpm's, might want to install an air to fuel ratio gauge.

Good thinking, never thought of that. The distributor is set for full advance at 2800 rpm( that's about the cruising rpm on freeway) which could be an issue although doesn't ping.

 

[Phoenix440]

Going to try seals first, makes sense that a lot of hot air circulating back to the radiator would increase temp.

 

[QuickBpBp]

Just a thought, the car has a reasonably large trans cooler right in the centre of the radiator, with an air gap from radiator of a few inches. Anyone think this would be causing enough restriction to cause over heating? Have thought about trying to relocate the cooler but not sure it would make much difference.

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Maybe try relocating the cooler off to one side to allow better air flow. Also it doesn't matter how fast you are driving down the highway when NONE of the air is going through the radiator. It's simply being blocked by the cooler and the electric fans.

 

[Sixpactogo]

You have it backwards
To increase the RPM of your driven pulley, you can either increase the motor RPM or decrease the diameter of the driven pulley.

It depends on which "driven" pulley you are talking about. The crankshaft driven pulley or the water pump driven pulley. A smaller crank pulley will slow down everything creating what they call an "underdrive system" A smaller water pump pulley will speed up the water pump. Case in point.....Check out the pic of my Challenger engine with the March Performance Underdrive system. Look at the difference in size of the crank pulleys between the underdrive and the factory pulleys on my Truck engine. The Challenger would boil within a few minutes of stop and go traffic because it was keeping the coolant in the engine too long and not spinning the fan fast enough at idle because of it. My Challenger issues did not go away with any of the things I tried with the timing changes, Water Wetter, the Flow Kooler pump, a pusher fan in front, or the 160 degree thermostat. Once I swapped back the factory belt and pulleys, my heating problems went away immediately. Mopar engineers knew that all components needed to work together as a team. Once I swapped back to the factory system, I noticed even my amp meter stayed in the middle at idle instead of the slight discharge with the serpentine set up. I guess those engineers were smarter than we give them credit for. I cus them quite often for spending sleepless nights dreaming up ways to screw the mechanic and I agree that some things can be improved upon but you gotta pay attention to details. I thought the underdrive meant more horsepower. Never even considered the headaches I created by that brain fart.

 

[Jeff Peterson]

It depends on which "driven" pulley you are talking about. The crankshaft driven pulley or the water pump driven pulley. A smaller crank pulley will slow down everything creating what they call an "underdrive system" A smaller water pump pulley will speed up the water pump. Case in point.....Check out the pic of my Challenger engine with the March Performance Underdrive system. Look at the difference in size of the crank pulleys between the underdrive and the factory pulleys on my Truck engine. The Challenger would boil within a few minutes of stop and go traffic because it was keeping the coolant in the engine too long and not spinning the fan fast enough at idle because of it. My Challenger issues did not go away with any of the things I tried with the timing changes, Water Wetter, the Flow Kooler pump, a pusher fan in front, or the 160 degree thermostat. Once I swapped back the factory belt and pulleys, my heating problems went away immediately. Mopar engineers knew that all components needed to work together as a team. Once I swapped back to the factory system, I noticed even my amp meter stayed in the middle at idle instead of the slight discharge with the serpentine set up. I guess those engineers were smarter than we give them credit for. I cus them quite often for spending sleepless nights dreaming up ways to screw the mechanic and I agree that some things can be improved upon but you gotta pay attention to details. I thought the underdrive meant more horsepower. Never even considered the headaches I created by that brain fart.

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The crankshaft is the DRIVE pulley, accessories are driven pulleys.

 

[twecomm]

If you go back to a stock radiator it would think it would have a tranny cooler coil as part of the stock style radiator. My 383 stock radiator does.

 

[Dave6T4]

Smaller pulley will turn faster. Look at crankshaft and camshaft gears. Larger cam gear turns at half speed of crank gear.

 

[RJRENTON]

Just wondering what is the opinion on.hi flow water pumps? Searching the posts on here, seems there is some debate that hi flow doesn't always mean cooler temps?
Looking at Koomaster, Milodon and Edelbrock Victor, all sound good on paper. Anyone had experience with these brands, particularly the Victor?
Car has standard cast pump and changing pump is my last attempt to try to cool the car( runs up to 220 at 3000rpm on highway after 15 minutes.Has 26" radiator, 2 x 14" fans, water wetter, 160 Mr Gasket thermostat. Thanks in advance.

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Your initial statement:
"Just wondering what is the opinion on.hi flow water pumps? Searching the posts on here, seems there is some debate that hi flow doesn't always mean cooler temps?" Is totally incorrect.....on the subject of thermodynamics (heat transfer with regard to volume, velocity, specific heat characteristics of the heat transfer media, heat exchanger surface area and volume and temperatures) is an exacting science....your statement is based of what ??....actual system values, both temperatures, pressures and actual operating conditions on both the fluid side and air side are necessary to make the actual determination.......not hearsay or some magazine article or your buddies opinion, even though his intentions might be good.....
DO NOT BELIEVE that the coolant must move slowly thru the radiator and 160°F thermostats are best. Show me your calculations and I'll help you with the determination. PM me if you'd like to continue the discussion......BTW.....I use to design high temperature gas to gas heat exchangers.......gas to gas, gas to liquid and liquid to liquid heat exchangers......fyi.....
BOB RENTON

 

[Sixpactogo]

The crankshaft is the DRIVE pulley, accessories are driven pulleys.

Yeah but it is still driven. By the crank shaft

 

[Jeff Peterson]

Yeah but it is still driven. By the crank shaft

 

[Rick62]

Just a thought, are your fans pulling air through the radiator or pushing?

 

[Armyvet25]

Just a thought, are your fans pulling air through the radiator or pushing?

and....electric fans get weak over time

 

[not so famous bob]

Your initial statement:
"Just wondering what is the opinion on.hi flow water pumps? Searching the posts on here, seems there is some debate that hi flow doesn't always mean cooler temps?" Is totally incorrect.....on the subject of thermodynamics (heat transfer with regard to volume, velocity, specific heat characteristics of the heat transfer media, heat exchanger surface area and volume and temperatures) is an exacting science....your statement is based of what ??....actual system values, both temperatures, pressures and actual operating conditions on both the fluid side and air side are necessary to make the actual determination.......not hearsay or some magazine article or your buddies opinion, even though his intentions might be good.....
DO NOT BELIEVE that the coolant must move slowly thru the radiator and 160°F thermostats are best. Show me your calculations and I'll help you with the determination. PM me if you'd like to continue the discussion......BTW.....I use to design high temperature gas to gas heat exchangers.......gas to gas, gas to liquid and liquid to liquid heat exchangers......fyi.....
BOB RENTON

I used to work on 8,12 and 16 cyl pipeline engines , they were not hi rpm (performance) engines , built to run yrs and yrs at 350ish rpm according to the type and manufacturer .
Hot hi perf. engines require more cooling that even stock hi performance engines , at least all of mine have !!

 

[1967coronet]

Move the trans cooler to the lower left aka outlet area of your radiator air flow.
Loose the electric fans and mount a 18" fixed or clutch fan.
Find a decent shroud to fit that cross flow and fan.
Fan blades should be 1 1/2 to 2 " off the radiator and a little of the blade out of the shroud.
Hood to cowl seal, hood to radiator support seal.
180 stat and 50/50 mix on coolant.
At idle the fans air flow should hold a dollar bill to the grille.
Engine timing set, and read the plugs for carb lean/ rich .
Your current set up is a air damn looks like to me.
Jmho.

 

[RJRENTON]

I used to work on 8,12 and 16 cyl pipeline engines , they were not hi rpm (performance) engines , built to run yrs and yrs at 350ish rpm according to the type and manufacturer .
Hot hi perf. engines require more cooling that even stock hi performance engines , at least all of mine have !!

Totally different circumstances and equipment.......and application......not comparisons between apples and oranges.......circulation rates, temperatures, fluid volumes, primary and secondary heat exchangers, fluid velocities, etc..........just my opinion.....
BOB RENTON

 

[Geoff 2]

Phoenix,
There can be maaaaaaaaaaany reasons why an engine runs hot. You can end up tearing your hair out [ if you have any.....] trying to find the cause.
You look at obvious things first like ign timing, mixture etc. Then you go the 'golden rules':
- there is not a water pump that is too big.....
- there is not a rad that is too big....
- there is not a fan that is too big.....
If you have a sizable cam in the engine, timing at idle will need to be 30* or more [ one 440 I tune with TF heads idles at 44* by using man connected vac adv [ MVA ] to provide the extra timing ].
My GTO still has the Pontiac 455 engine in it. I modified it to take the SB Chev Edel Victor #8810 pump. Cost $300 in Oz & that was 20 years ago!! What a difference! Temp toggles around 180 on a 40+*C day, actually comes DOWN at idle. It is all about clearances. This pump has a newly designed body, with 0.030" clearance between the impeller & running parts. Compared to 1/8-3/16" on factory pumps. So ALL the water gets captured & pumped through the engine, instead of getting churned up inside the housing.
I habve modifed 440 pumps with stamped impellers by fitting a 'donut' behind the impeller & another donut on the front of the impeller.
Contrary to what some people say, a fan CAN improve cooling at highway speeds. It is something you have to try see if it works on your engine. You cannot beat a 19" 6/7 blade clutch fan with severe duty clutch. Some years ago, I rigged up a rudimentary fan tester & tested a few fans. The multi-blade plastic 18" fans from air cond Fairlanes were pretty good, but the best was a 7 blade Chrys clutch fan I had that was about 21" diam. Do not know what model it was off. I trimmed the blades to fit my GTO shroud, been on 20 yrs.

 

[Phoenix440]

Just a thought, are your fans pulling air through the radiator or pushing?

Pulling

 

[Phoenix440]

Phoenix,
There can be maaaaaaaaaaany reasons why an engine runs hot. You can end up tearing your hair out [ if you have any.....] trying to find the cause.
You look at obvious things first like ign timing, mixture etc. Then you go the 'golden rules':
- there is not a water pump that is too big.....
- there is not a rad that is too big....
- there is not a fan that is too big.....
If you have a sizable cam in the engine, timing at idle will need to be 30* or more [ one 440 I tune with TF heads idles at 44* by using man connected vac adv [ MVA ] to provide the extra timing ].
My GTO still has the Pontiac 455 engine in it. I modified it to take the SB Chev Edel Victor #8810 pump. Cost $300 in Oz & that was 20 years ago!! What a difference! Temp toggles around 180 on a 40+*C day, actually comes DOWN at idle. It is all about clearances. This pump has a newly designed body, with 0.030" clearance between the impeller & running parts. Compared to 1/8-3/16" on factory pumps. So ALL the water gets captured & pumped through the engine, instead of getting churned up inside the housing.
I habve modifed 440 pumps with stamped impellers by fitting a 'donut' behind the impeller & another donut on the front of the impeller.
Contrary to what some people say, a fan CAN improve cooling at highway speeds. It is something you have to try see if it works on your engine. You cannot beat a 19" 6/7 blade clutch fan with severe duty clutch. Some years ago, I rigged up a rudimentary fan tester & tested a few fans. The multi-blade plastic 18" fans from air cond Fairlanes were pretty good, but the best was a 7 blade Chrys clutch fan I had that was about 21" diam. Do not know what model it was off. I trimmed the blades to fit my GTO shroud, been on 20 yrs.

Thanks for the ideas Geoff.
Interesting you found the Edelbrock water pump to be so much better than stock in your Gto. Havnt read any reviews on these being used on Chrysler Big blocks, but figured their much higher price must be for a reason. Do you recall what kind of temparature drop you got compared to the original pump?Don't think theres a silver bullet wirh my heating issue though,will keep chipping away at it.Going on suggestions here, going to try to seal the radiator to bonnet, relocate auto trans cooler, put on hi flow pump and lastly change pulley ratio to more like factory ac ratio.

Regarding fans ,I think i'm limited to electric thermo fans due to space, clutch would never fit, but may try a regular fan later, space is tight but might work.
You can buy an ac dual water pump pulley (5 7/8 diameter) from Mancini which will give roughly 20 % overdrive( currently is about 3 % underdriven) and may need 3 groove crank pulley as well ( not sure the water pulley will line up with the existing 2 groove crank pulley but will work that out when I get to that stage, if needed.