How should a reproduction fender tag w/options should look like?

[kiwigtx]

Once again,

Once again..... altering Fender Tags is outright fraud.

It is the same as changing details on your birth certificate.

 

[69Coronetrt]

A '68 wouldn't have had a VIN on the engine or trans, so procuring date coded replacements would really make the car as good as it could ever be.

68 Charger engine and automatic transmission VIN.

 

[69Coronetrt]

If I end up restoring the car, the fender tag has a hole rusted in it. It's small, and between numbers. It definitely doesn't interfere with reading or decoding the tag. I would try to procure a replacement so it looks nice. Is there something immoral about that? Especially if the original tag is retained as part of the car's documentation?

If your reproduction tag is documented by the original in both coding and format, why would there be an issue? No one quarrels with that concept.

The discussion is always around the ethics and implications of reproducing undocumented tags.

I've been working with, studying, and cataloging fender tags for over 20 years. I've seen thousands of tags from various years, plants and platforms. I still see new things (V08 on a '69 Lynch Road tag) and learn every week.

The amount of correlations (IF N96 then J25 except for.... type coding) and nuances (A code did not appear during that month/quarter at that plant. That code never appeared at that plant. That code started showing up during May of the production year) that occurred make it virtually impossible for the average (I'll look at my car and make a best guess as to what goes on the tag) guy to make an accurate tag for their car without extensive research and sometimes never (i.e. representing 69+ Lynch Road gate and base numbers).

Tags made by 'professional' tag makers are often easy to spot due to their misunderstanding of coding, guessing and unintentional errors so even paying somone to make a tag can have pitfalls. Buyer beware. There are a lot of crap tag makers out there right now.

Even tags reproduced from a broadcast sheet or other documentation are inaccurate or subject to errors due to not understanding what codes to use and when to use them from which plant. Again, buyer beware.

If you HAVE to have a tag to satisfy your ego, please, go ahead but please stop rationalize and justifying a relatively expensive inaccurate reproduction part that does not go with your car simply to ease your own mind, opens up questions as to your integrity and, unless you have directions to destroy your car when you die, lead to potentially fraud in the future to the rest of us.

No one can stop you from having a bad tag made for your car.

My two cents. Your milage may vary.

 

[70chall440]

Just a couple of points;

- The haters always take the position that anyone wanting a FT made means that they want to alter or enhance what would have been the original tag. The reality is that most just want the tag so jackasses stop turning their noses up at car shows and talking car about "oh no tag" like its the scarlet letter.

- there is always someone who is quick to point out that "fake" tags are easy to spot and how hard it is to make or remake an authentic tag. If that is the case then someone getting a tag should not be a problem since they are easy to spot.

- if a tag is present AND you know how to read it AND the options indicated are in fact present then what is the issue? The truth is that unless you personally know this car from when it was new you have no idea what it was made with or without, rather you would ideally look at the tag and anything else and inspect the car to determine if what you are seeing looks like it should be there.

This is probably why so many tags were removed in the first place, people adding (or deleting) options and by removing the tag no one would possibly know.

Each to his own, there are bigger problems in the world than getting a FT made and personally I have zero issue with someone getting one. I don't care if they turn an AT car into a manual, a brown car into a hemi orange one, a crap blue interior to a black one; if the car has these AND its on the tag then it is what it is.

People love to throw the word "fraud" out there but thats a strong word reserved for someone who is actively trying to deceive someone else which is most cases in not the intention. These people will then say "you might be trying to deceive someone but the next buyer or two won't know"... well then they won't know so no harm no foul.

This is a load and something that people love to get their panties knotted up over when in fact it means nothing. The vast majority of people who would (and do) get tags just want their car to be complete like the self appointed experts running their sucks. The people who actively want to make a tag for nefarious reasons are not going to ask your permission and most likely already have the means and method to do so.

 

[DeltaV]

All car sales, even brand new cars, are caveat emptor. That is, "let the buyer beware".

 

[eldubb440]

are we to believe every "graveyard" car has the original, unrusted fender tag and build sheet to confirm?

 

[RemCharger]

Just a couple of points;

- The haters always take the position that anyone wanting a FT made means that they want to alter or enhance what would have been the original tag. The reality is that most just want the tag so jackasses stop turning their noses up at car shows and talking car about "oh no tag" like its the scarlet letter.

It's hard to say what the reality is, or what most want. Or why anyone is concerned with what " haters" and "jackasses " say. I have cars with/ without tags and I sleep well. My main racecar has a tag, but No one seems to give a **** except me.

- there is always someone who is quick to point out that "fake" tags are easy to spot and how hard it is to make or remake an authentic tag. If that is the case then someone getting a tag should not be a problem since they are easy to spot.

The info on the tag will not be authentic. The " look" could be close to original, I'm sure some have artificially rusted them

- if a tag is present AND you know how to read it AND the options indicated are in fact present then what is the issue? The truth is that unless you personally know this car from when it was new you have no idea what it was made with or without, rather you would ideally look at the tag and anything else and inspect the car to determine if what you are seeing looks like it should be there.

This is probably why so many tags were removed in the first place, people adding (or deleting) options and by removing the tag no one would possibly know.

The majority were removed by people trying to make the engine bay more eye pleasing, IMO

Each to his own, there are bigger problems in the world than getting a FT made and personally I have zero issue with someone getting one. I don't care if they turn an AT car into a manual, a brown car into a hemi orange one, a crap blue interior to a black one; if the car has these AND its on the tag then it is what it is.

Again, why then is there a big issue with the tag just being lost. And it's not is what it is, it's now something it wasn't.

People love to throw the word "fraud" out there but thats a strong word reserved for someone who is actively trying to deceive someone else which is most cases in not the intention. These people will then say "you might be trying to deceive someone but the next buyer or two won't know"... well then they won't know so no harm no foul.

I like vehicles to be low- milers. So I twist all the odometers back to where they make me happy. But I certainly do not intend to deceive anyone. And the next owner won't know, so please don't call me a fraud.

This is a load and something that people love to get their panties knotted up over when in fact it means nothing. The vast majority of people who would (and do) get tags just want their car to be complete like the self appointed experts running their sucks. The people who actively want to make a tag for nefarious reasons are not going to ask your permission and most likely already have the means and method to do so.

If nefarious people do it, everyone should do it.

 

[WP29P3A]

I know a guy, who owns a '71 340 Challenger.
Originally it wasn't a high optioned car, because he still has the ORIGINAL FACTORY INSTALLED TAG. His "goal" as he explained to me, was to turn the car into a highly optioned car, using all factory original parts, he has sourced, and paint this car, a "high impact" color..he hasn't decided on yet. He has already sourced a 1971 Challenger roof, complete with the factory sunroof in it. He bought it at Carlisle years ago, so I was told. He has a complete set of the wide chrome moldings for the top of the fenders and hood, chin spoilers, cassette recorder for the floor console, ralleye dash( car came with the standard dash)... plus more parts he plans on using ...And yes...I have seen all these parts he has, myself...you see where I'm going here? He is INTENTIONALLY turning this car into something it isn't, and he is going to get a FAKE fender tag made to match all these factory parts, he has been gathering for quite a while now.
Now, if he ever sells it, is he going to be a stand up guy, and tell the potential buyer what he did??
Most likely not, why? Because this guy really doesn't care! He is that kind of person! Then after that, the car, will be out in the "wild" and always and forever be tainted, and a complete fake. Some poor guy/gal who won't know the difference, or really do their homework, will get screwed badly! Which has me asking, why is the OP wanting to get a fake tag made for a car, that is pretty rare, '71 Charger R/T (that deserves a restoration) and wanting to make a "race car" out of it??? Doesn't make any sense?
Something fishy for sure.

 

[nitro_rat]

Tags made by 'professional' tag makers are often easy to spot due to their misunderstanding of coding, guessing and unintentional errors so even paying somone to make a tag can have pitfalls. Buyer beware. There are a lot of crap tag makers out there right now.

Even tags reproduced from a broadcast sheet or other documentation are inaccurate or subject to errors due to not understanding what codes to use and when to use them from which plant. Again, buyer beware.

This is exactly why I don’t have a problem with reproducing tags. It’s extremely difficult to pull off a counterfeit car especially with all the knowledge that’s out there today.

If someone is planning on plunking down mountains of duckets for that Hemi Cuda convertible they should be doing a little background checking amd research beforehand.

A fraudulent fender tag would definitely be a red flag that would hurt the value of the car, possibly more than just a tag missing altogether…

 

[69Coronetrt]

This is exactly why I don’t have a problem with reproducing tags. It’s extremely difficult to pull off a counterfeit car especially with all the knowledge that’s out there today.

If someone is planning on plunking down mountains of duckets for that Hemi Cuda convertible they should be doing a little background checking amd research beforehand.

A fraudulent fender tag would definitely be a red flag that would hurt the value of the car, possibly more than just a tag missing altogether…

Buyer access to correct information gets better all the time through FB groups and sites like this. It's far more common for people looking to buy a car to ASK others before buying the car "Hey, its this a legit tag?" than it was 20 years ago. Buyers have become wise to the frauds.

Research, networking and collaboration amongst people is far better than it used to be. More and more folks are specializing in years, bodies and sub groups than before meaning the knowledge base is spread out among more people and the possibility for people to get ripped off by buying cars with bad tags is decreasing. More and more knowledge is shared on line than before. There is some really nice new and fresh research going on and being shared.

More and more tag makers are being called out for producing bogus tags and ripping off people by selling bad tags. Frankly, a lot of supposedly knowledgeable and touted vendors do not know what they are doing when it comes to making a tag and are charging people a lot of money for a really bad product. Buyers do not know any better as they are going on the supposed 'reputation' of the vendor and plunk down hundreds of dollars only to wind up with a crap piece of metal.

Your milage may vary.

 

[kiwigtx]

I like vehicles to be low- milers. So I twist all the odometers back to where they make me happy. But I certainly do not intend to deceive anyone. And the next owner won't know, so please don't call me a fraud.

 

[RemCharger]

The dealers used to call it " giving it a haircut". Sometimes they had birthdays, but it wasn't really a party

 

[kiwigtx]

The dealers used to call it " giving it a haircut".

Actually I have heard that term used many years ago. Funny that not many people cared.....at least the ones without badges didn't.

I remember a time back up until the mid-eighties where cars never got fiddled with much, and you could tell a car was genuine mileage by the condition of things like the steering wheel, pedal rubbers, wheels, paint condition etc..... people were a little more honest back then. Probably because there were consequences for doing wrong.

 

[68BabyBlue]

Buyer access to correct information gets better all the time through FB groups and sites like this. It's far more common for people looking to buy a car to ASK others before buying the car "Hey, its this a legit tag?" than it was 20 years ago. Buyers have become wise to the frauds.

Research, networking and collaboration amongst people is far better than it used to be. More and more folks are specializing in years, bodies and sub groups than before meaning the knowledge base is spread out among more people and the possibility for people to get ripped off by buying cars with bad tags is decreasing. More and more knowledge is shared on line than before. There is some really nice new and fresh research going on and being shared.

More and more tag makers are being called out for producing bogus tags and ripping off people by selling bad tags. Frankly, a lot of supposedly knowledgeable and touted vendors do no know what they are doing when it comes to making a tag and are charging people a lot of money for a really bad product. Buyers do not know any better as they are going on the supposed 'reputation' of the vendor and plunk down hundreds of dollars only to wind up with a crap piece of metal.

Your milage may vary.

In 1977, I bought my first original numbers matching GTX for $1500. Had no idea that any of this fender tag/broadcast sheet information existed. At that price point, it didn't matter. I few years later, I bought the second one, for $1800. It came with an original fender tag and broadcast sheet. Still not a big deal, the car was a bare bones model, with almost no options. Fast forward four decades, and I'd moved on to a higher level, prices were over 20 times what they were when I started. Now it's due diligence with a microscope on every one. I retired, and finished my collecting days, without getting burned.

All my cars have been matching numbers, original fender tags, documented ownership history, most had broadcast sheets. My personal experience at car shows was that nobody cared about any of that stuff. The Hemi got attention for the fact it had the engine, not for the fact it was real. My A33, four speed with good color combination, same thing, nobody was impressed by the proof it came that way.

Now when it came time to sell those cars, it was a whole different story. People who are laying out that kind of money for a luxury item, unless they just won the lottery, are being careful with it. I got the third degree about originality and documentation on every one of them. The internet has generated a lot of scams, but it's also spread a lot of knowledge.

This site has been a great source of information. It's also served as a great network for connecting those new to the hobby with experienced participants. A new member recently approached me to help him evaluate cars, I ending up authenticating a great one, which he purchased. A past owner made him an offer he couldn't refuse, and soon he was in search of a second one. A likely candidate appeared, but due diligence quickly raised some flags. Walked away, no harm, no foul. This game has sure changed in my lifetime, hard to imagine, looking back, the potential dollars wrapped up in a piece of tin like a fender tag.