Once again..... altering Fender Tags is outright fraud.
It is the same as changing details on your birth certificate.
How should a reproduction fender tag w/options should look like?
- Thread starter Migsbig
- Start date
It is the same as changing details on your birth certificate.
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
If your reproduction tag is documented by the original in both coding and format, why would there be an issue? No one quarrels with that concept.
The discussion is always around the ethics and implications of reproducing undocumented tags.
I've been working with, studying, and cataloging fender tags for over 20 years. I've seen thousands of tags from various years, plants and platforms. I still see new things (V08 on a '69 Lynch Road tag) and learn every week.
The amount of correlations (IF N96 then J25 except for.... type coding) and nuances (A code did not appear during that month/quarter at that plant. That code never appeared at that plant. That code started showing up during May of the production year) that occurred make it virtually impossible for the average (I'll look at my car and make a best guess as to what goes on the tag) guy to make an accurate tag for their car without extensive research and sometimes never (i.e. representing 69+ Lynch Road gate and base numbers).
Tags made by 'professional' tag makers are often easy to spot due to their misunderstanding of coding, guessing and unintentional errors so even paying somone to make a tag can have pitfalls. Buyer beware. There are a lot of crap tag makers out there right now.
Even tags reproduced from a broadcast sheet or other documentation are inaccurate or subject to errors due to not understanding what codes to use and when to use them from which plant. Again, buyer beware.
If you HAVE to have a tag to satisfy your ego, please, go ahead but please stop rationalize and justifying a relatively expensive inaccurate reproduction part that does not go with your car simply to ease your own mind, opens up questions as to your integrity and, unless you have directions to destroy your car when you die, lead to potentially fraud in the future to the rest of us.
No one can stop you from having a bad tag made for your car.
My two cents. Your milage may vary.
70chall440
Well-Known Member
- Local time
- 2:59 AM
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2018
- Messages
- 4,832
- Reaction score
- 6,775
- Location
- Yelm, Washington
Just a couple of points;
- The haters always take the position that anyone wanting a FT made means that they want to alter or enhance what would have been the original tag. The reality is that most just want the tag so jackasses stop turning their noses up at car shows and talking car about "oh no tag" like its the scarlet letter.
- there is always someone who is quick to point out that "fake" tags are easy to spot and how hard it is to make or remake an authentic tag. If that is the case then someone getting a tag should not be a problem since they are easy to spot.
- if a tag is present AND you know how to read it AND the options indicated are in fact present then what is the issue? The truth is that unless you personally know this car from when it was new you have no idea what it was made with or without, rather you would ideally look at the tag and anything else and inspect the car to determine if what you are seeing looks like it should be there.
This is probably why so many tags were removed in the first place, people adding (or deleting) options and by removing the tag no one would possibly know.
Each to his own, there are bigger problems in the world than getting a FT made and personally I have zero issue with someone getting one. I don't care if they turn an AT car into a manual, a brown car into a hemi orange one, a crap blue interior to a black one; if the car has these AND its on the tag then it is what it is.
People love to throw the word "fraud" out there but thats a strong word reserved for someone who is actively trying to deceive someone else which is most cases in not the intention. These people will then say "you might be trying to deceive someone but the next buyer or two won't know"... well then they won't know so no harm no foul.
This is a load and something that people love to get their panties knotted up over when in fact it means nothing. The vast majority of people who would (and do) get tags just want their car to be complete like the self appointed experts running their sucks. The people who actively want to make a tag for nefarious reasons are not going to ask your permission and most likely already have the means and method to do so.
- The haters always take the position that anyone wanting a FT made means that they want to alter or enhance what would have been the original tag. The reality is that most just want the tag so jackasses stop turning their noses up at car shows and talking car about "oh no tag" like its the scarlet letter.
- there is always someone who is quick to point out that "fake" tags are easy to spot and how hard it is to make or remake an authentic tag. If that is the case then someone getting a tag should not be a problem since they are easy to spot.
- if a tag is present AND you know how to read it AND the options indicated are in fact present then what is the issue? The truth is that unless you personally know this car from when it was new you have no idea what it was made with or without, rather you would ideally look at the tag and anything else and inspect the car to determine if what you are seeing looks like it should be there.
This is probably why so many tags were removed in the first place, people adding (or deleting) options and by removing the tag no one would possibly know.
Each to his own, there are bigger problems in the world than getting a FT made and personally I have zero issue with someone getting one. I don't care if they turn an AT car into a manual, a brown car into a hemi orange one, a crap blue interior to a black one; if the car has these AND its on the tag then it is what it is.
People love to throw the word "fraud" out there but thats a strong word reserved for someone who is actively trying to deceive someone else which is most cases in not the intention. These people will then say "you might be trying to deceive someone but the next buyer or two won't know"... well then they won't know so no harm no foul.
This is a load and something that people love to get their panties knotted up over when in fact it means nothing. The vast majority of people who would (and do) get tags just want their car to be complete like the self appointed experts running their sucks. The people who actively want to make a tag for nefarious reasons are not going to ask your permission and most likely already have the means and method to do so.
- Local time
- 5:59 AM
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2008
- Messages
- 22,950
- Reaction score
- 67,488
- Location
- South Jersey USA
are we to believe every "graveyard" car has the original, unrusted fender tag and build sheet to confirm?
It's hard to say what the reality is, or what most want. Or why anyone is concerned with what " haters" and "jackasses " say. I have cars with/ without tags and I sleep well. My main racecar has a tag, but No one seems to give a **** except me.
The info on the tag will not be authentic. The " look" could be close to original, I'm sure some have artificially rusted them
The majority were removed by people trying to make the engine bay more eye pleasing, IMO
Again, why then is there a big issue with the tag just being lost. And it's not is what it is, it's now something it wasn't.
I like vehicles to be low- milers. So I twist all the odometers back to where they make me happy. But I certainly do not intend to deceive anyone. And the next owner won't know, so please don't call me a fraud.
If nefarious people do it, everyone should do it.
WP29P3A
Member
I know a guy, who owns a '71 340 Challenger.
Originally it wasn't a high optioned car, because he still has the ORIGINAL FACTORY INSTALLED TAG. His "goal" as he explained to me, was to turn the car into a highly optioned car, using all factory original parts, he has sourced, and paint this car, a "high impact" color..he hasn't decided on yet. He has already sourced a 1971 Challenger roof, complete with the factory sunroof in it. He bought it at Carlisle years ago, so I was told. He has a complete set of the wide chrome moldings for the top of the fenders and hood, chin spoilers, cassette recorder for the floor console, ralleye dash( car came with the standard dash)... plus more parts he plans on using ...And yes...I have seen all these parts he has, myself...you see where I'm going here? He is INTENTIONALLY turning this car into something it isn't, and he is going to get a FAKE fender tag made to match all these factory parts, he has been gathering for quite a while now.
Now, if he ever sells it, is he going to be a stand up guy, and tell the potential buyer what he did??
Most likely not, why? Because this guy really doesn't care! He is that kind of person! Then after that, the car, will be out in the "wild" and always and forever be tainted, and a complete fake. Some poor guy/gal who won't know the difference, or really do their homework, will get screwed badly! Which has me asking, why is the OP wanting to get a fake tag made for a car, that is pretty rare, '71 Charger R/T (that deserves a restoration) and wanting to make a "race car" out of it??? Doesn't make any sense?
Something fishy for sure.
Originally it wasn't a high optioned car, because he still has the ORIGINAL FACTORY INSTALLED TAG. His "goal" as he explained to me, was to turn the car into a highly optioned car, using all factory original parts, he has sourced, and paint this car, a "high impact" color..he hasn't decided on yet. He has already sourced a 1971 Challenger roof, complete with the factory sunroof in it. He bought it at Carlisle years ago, so I was told. He has a complete set of the wide chrome moldings for the top of the fenders and hood, chin spoilers, cassette recorder for the floor console, ralleye dash( car came with the standard dash)... plus more parts he plans on using ...And yes...I have seen all these parts he has, myself...you see where I'm going here? He is INTENTIONALLY turning this car into something it isn't, and he is going to get a FAKE fender tag made to match all these factory parts, he has been gathering for quite a while now.
Now, if he ever sells it, is he going to be a stand up guy, and tell the potential buyer what he did??
Most likely not, why? Because this guy really doesn't care! He is that kind of person! Then after that, the car, will be out in the "wild" and always and forever be tainted, and a complete fake. Some poor guy/gal who won't know the difference, or really do their homework, will get screwed badly! Which has me asking, why is the OP wanting to get a fake tag made for a car, that is pretty rare, '71 Charger R/T (that deserves a restoration) and wanting to make a "race car" out of it??? Doesn't make any sense?
Something fishy for sure.
Last edited:
nitro_rat
Well-Known Member
This is exactly why I don’t have a problem with reproducing tags. It’s extremely difficult to pull off a counterfeit car especially with all the knowledge that’s out there today.
If someone is planning on plunking down mountains of duckets for that Hemi Cuda convertible they should be doing a little background checking amd research beforehand.
A fraudulent fender tag would definitely be a red flag that would hurt the value of the car, possibly more than just a tag missing altogether…
69Coronetrt
Well-Known Member
Buyer access to correct information gets better all the time through FB groups and sites like this. It's far more common for people looking to buy a car to ASK others before buying the car "Hey, its this a legit tag?" than it was 20 years ago. Buyers have become wise to the frauds.
Research, networking and collaboration amongst people is far better than it used to be. More and more folks are specializing in years, bodies and sub groups than before meaning the knowledge base is spread out among more people and the possibility for people to get ripped off by buying cars with bad tags is decreasing. More and more knowledge is shared on line than before. There is some really nice new and fresh research going on and being shared.
More and more tag makers are being called out for producing bogus tags and ripping off people by selling bad tags. Frankly, a lot of supposedly knowledgeable and touted vendors do not know what they are doing when it comes to making a tag and are charging people a lot of money for a really bad product. Buyers do not know any better as they are going on the supposed 'reputation' of the vendor and plunk down hundreds of dollars only to wind up with a crap piece of metal.
Your milage may vary.
Last edited:
The dealers used to call it " giving it a haircut". Sometimes they had birthdays, but it wasn't really a party
Actually I have heard that term used many years ago. Funny that not many people cared.....at least the ones without badges didn't.
I remember a time back up until the mid-eighties where cars never got fiddled with much, and you could tell a car was genuine mileage by the condition of things like the steering wheel, pedal rubbers, wheels, paint condition etc..... people were a little more honest back then. Probably because there were consequences for doing wrong.
- Local time
- 5:59 AM
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2020
- Messages
- 2,735
- Reaction score
- 9,165
- Location
- State College, Pennsylvania
In 1977, I bought my first original numbers matching GTX for $1500. Had no idea that any of this fender tag/broadcast sheet information existed. At that price point, it didn't matter. Six years later, I bought the second one, for $1800. It came with an original fender tag and broadcast sheet. Still not a big deal, the car was a bare bones model, with almost no options. Fast forward four decades, and I'd moved on to a higher level, prices were over 20 times what they were when I started. I did due diligence with a microscope on every one. I retired, and finished my collecting days, without getting burned.
All my cars have been matching numbers, original fender tags, documented ownership history, most had broadcast sheets. My personal experience at car shows was that nobody cared about any of that stuff. The Hemi got attention for the fact it had the engine, not for the fact it was real. My A33, four speed with good color combination, same thing, nobody was impressed by the proof it came that way.
Now when it came time to sell those cars, it was a whole different story. People who are laying out that kind of money for a luxury item, unless they just won the lottery, are being careful with it. I got the third degree about originality and documentation on every one of them. The internet has generated a lot of scams, but it's also spread a lot of knowledge.
This site has been a great source of information. It's also served as a great network for connecting those new to the hobby with experienced participants. A new member recently approached me to help him evaluate cars, I ending up authenticating a great one, which he purchased. A past owner made him an offer he couldn't refuse, and soon he was in search of a second one. A likely candidate appeared, but due diligence quickly raised some flags. Walked away, no harm, no foul. This game has sure changed in my lifetime, hard to imagine, looking back, the potential dollars wrapped up in a piece of tin like a fender tag.
Last edited:
I remember a thread on Moparts where a guy paid 150k for his dream car 70 Coronet R/T 440 V code Sixpack 4 speed car. It was black with a red stripe. The car still needed to get final assembly. The experts over on Moparts schreaded the guys car,telling him he got screwed over,and the fender tag was fake. They went on to tell him there were codes on the tag that were obviously incorrect, but were not going to tell him what codes because it would help the thieves be able to make more correct fake tags etc. They told him that all the options and colors were probably added or changed and that the car was probably a triple green column shifted automatic car that never had a Dana rear axle or the N96 Ramcharger hood option. So the sickened owner who shelled out 150k was obviously distraught and contacted the guy he purchased the car from wanting to return the car for a full refund. The seller told him that the tag was indeed a reproduction fender tag,but that he had the original tag and would give it to him. The original tag read exactly like the reproduction tag did, not one single code option or color had been changed. The seller was trying to make the car look like lt was brand new and the original tag had pitting,so he had an exact copy made for the car. The experts all dissapeared from the thread after that when they were challenged to provide what codes and opinions were changed. The silence was deafening!
- Local time
- 5:59 AM
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2008
- Messages
- 22,950
- Reaction score
- 67,488
- Location
- South Jersey USA
terrywalker
Well-Known Member
- Local time
- 2:59 AM
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2017
- Messages
- 479
- Reaction score
- 955
- Location
- Kennewick, Washington
I have been seeing this subject go around for many years. I have a take to share. It's my 71 Challenger convertible Shaker 340 4 speed car, which I have owned since June 1972. I added one option to the car but have not changed the fender tag. I added hood pins. Why, might you ask? I was in the Navy at the time and had my car parked somewhere overnight. I looked in the morning and someone had opened the hood and messed around with trying to remove the shaker bubble. I then installed hood pin type locks so no one could open the hood to mess around with something. These were locks that had a female pin receiver that mounted in the same place as the original style pins would mount and required a key to open the male lock. I never regret doing that. Later, I installed regular hood pins. I've never changed the fender tag to reflect the hood pins. The hood could be put back to original with careful welding but why? I've had people open my hood at car shows - not a big deal but a thief could do it just as easy. I could install small padlocks if I needed to make it more difficult to open the hood when I'm not around. Maybe it destroyed some originality of the car. I could get a new fender tag made, but... I don't care. I enjoy the car for what it is.
Terry W.
Terry W.
Similar threads
