HYD. Roller lifters , which one?

[BSB67]

if it lives @the strip with no parts attrition its gonna live on the street or am I missing something, engines don't blow up on the street but on the track.

Yes, I do think you are missing something. IMO making a strip only application live in both strip and street is harder and far more grueling.

 

[440rb]

The fact that my car was strip only is irrelevant and nothing to do with the comments made previous about high lift cams and there attrition rate, its obvious that nobody is going to drive a 5.13 geared car on the street. I gave an example of such a cam that happened to be in a race only car that had no problems at all, and 1 that was driven on the road for distances that had no problems either, its got nothing to do with race cars and making them live on the street, but whether your street car is going to blow up if you use such a cam on the street, answer no if you put it together properly with good parts, my junk lived fine on both, street and strip, are you guys going to put .500 lift cams into your stroker motors that you want to make 600>700hp, of course not, don't worry about it, your going to beat on your stuff as much as I did and I had no issues which was my whole point

 

[Dan64]

That's my BIG question, and I have a VESTED INTEREST in the replies @Dan64 gets here.
My local engine builder who built our Pontiac 421 Tripower suggested the CompCams hydraulic roller cam and lifters. I haven't been given ANY warning nor instructions on doing maintenance
or inspections on them. They are quiet in operation, and have worked flawlessly. Rare quarter mile track use (so far, but once the carbs are rebuilt to high performance specs, that could increase to twice a month) a full week of Cruisin the Coast every year, and that includes lots of stop and go traffic and idling. I can't compare that to the 541 stroker Mopar I plan on building, because the Pontiac has a .510" lift and only 345# spring pressure.
I am sure that the lift on my 541 will be higher, and higher spring pressure. Same for the OP, but from all of the information I've been reading in AndyF's book, the OP IS a good candidate for hydraulic roller cam and lifters, because of CAM lift at .600 or less in his case, as long as spring pressure doesn't disqualify their use.
My only 2 concerns for the OP using hydraulic roller lifters is the RPM range with the Max Wedge ports and depending on the cam, how high that combination may PUSH the RPM range UP. It is clear to me that AndyF is ok with hydraulic lifters to 6k RPM and 6,500 to 7k RPM max.
The 2nd "problem" for me is more individual choice. As much as I would LOVE the seemingly maintenance free? operation of hydraulic roller lifters, I feel compelled to abide by my friend and one of my mentors Jim Laroy's firm decision NOT TO USE ANY HYDRAULIC LIFTERS, even though the hydraulic flat tappet CompCams lifters in my 440 292°/.509 cam w/911-16 CompCams springs at 373 pounds of pressure performs FLAWLESSLY on a regular basis to 6,200 RPMs!

Your right about moving up the rpm latter. I have heard m w size heads may like around 6500 rpm so I got the number stuck in my head . As pointed out to me trick flows own 270 test with hyd. Roller was done at 5800-5850 . Their stroker is a 505 vs. my 493 with a little .040 more lift cam then me so I can't see my motor wanting more rpm .they even have a taller single plane.maybe need to see stability to 6200 at the stripe. Big question now is who makes the best hyd. Roller lifter.?.so far have heard good things on Howard's , older cranes, comp is split but may be just because they have sold more,who knows?. Trick flows are maybe Howard's . Morel makes two different ones, my builder is going to check everything out on the 270 including spring pressure and when I have those numbers that will be another piece of the puzzle.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Trick flows are maybe Howard's .

Maybe call TrickFlow and ask them?
Tell them you are using the 270s and what your plans are.

 

[PRHeads]

As pointed out to me trick flows own 270 test with hyd. Roller was done at 5800-5850 .

Which is likely at least to some degree the lifters acting up...... especially with the 1.6 rockers.

Andy has tested a number of hyd roller cammed BB strokers with TF heads over the last year or so.
I think the dyno pulls rarely ever go much over 6000-6100...... because the power curve has peaked prior to that point.

A 505 with TF 270’s and a single plane intake, running a suitably sized solid lifter cam could easily peak beyond that rpm.

Fundamentally, I don’t really have a problem with hyd roller lifters in this type of build...... but my suggestion is to build it with the intention of making all you can by 6000rpm, because there’s a pretty good chance it won’t be happy at rpm higher than that.
Obviously, when you introduce the hyd function into the mix, the lobe profile will be a major player in the upper rpm capability of the valvetrain.

The TOTL limited travel style lifters, set up off the bottom of the plunger travel will give you the best upper rpm performance when faster lobes(that require higher spring loads) are employed.
For the most part....... you’re running them pretty close to “solid” conditions.
If going that route, you really want to be sure you’re running plenty of spring load....... because if you float the valvetrain...... the lifters will pump up..... a lot.
And most builds don’t have enough p/v clearance to absorb it without contact.

 

[Dan64]

Which is likely at least to some degree the lifters acting up...... especially with the 1.6 rockers.

Andy has tested a number of hyd roller cammed BB strokers with TF heads over the last year or so.
I think the dyno pulls rarely ever go much over 6000-6100...... because the power curve has peaked prior to that point.

A 505 with TF 270’s and a single plane intake, running a suitably sized solid lifter cam could easily peak beyond that rpm.

Fundamentally, I don’t really have a problem with hyd roller lifters in this type of build...... but my suggestion is to build it with the intention of making all you can by 6000rpm, because there’s a pretty good chance it won’t be happy at rpm higher than that.
Obviously, when you introduce the hyd function into the mix, the lobe profile will be a major player in the upper rpm capability of the valvetrain.

The TOTL limited travel style lifters, set up off the bottom of the plunger travel will give you the best upper rpm performance when faster lobes(that require higher spring loads) are employed.
For the most part....... you’re running them pretty close to “solid” conditions.
If going that route, you really want to be sure you’re running plenty of spring load....... because if you float the valvetrain...... the lifters will pump up..... a lot.
And most builds don’t have enough p/v clearance to absorb it without contact.

Thank you for your input,would a motor like this benefit from the morel hi- rpm lifters?

 

[biomedtechguy]

TOTL limited travel style lifters

TOTL?
TopOfTheLine?

 

[biomedtechguy]

morel hi- rpm lifters?

FWIW
From a web search, engine builder website on adjusting the various types of Morel lifters:
Hi-RPM Series:

The Hi-RPM Series hydraulic lifters are made from a billet body and have a clipped axle. These lifters have a 7000 rpm + capability with a .120″ plunger travel and have an 80% fill rate with the test oil. These lifters (5044,5468,5294,5472,5045,5470,5879,6083,5891,6085,6072,6074) have a .750″ diameter roller wheel for the .842″ & .875″ diameter lifters and a .810″ diameter roller wheel for the .903″ diameter lifters. The internal tolerances are much tighter in this series. Do not use oil heavier than 5w40!!

Recommended Spring Pressure:
100-225lbs Seat Pressure
350-550lbs Open Pressure

 

[PRHeads]

Recommended Spring Pressure:
100-225lbs Seat Pressure
350-550lbs Open Pressure

So....... if you’re using a cam/rocker combo that requires you to be at or near the upper ends of those limits...... you’re in the same range, wear and tear wise, as a milder solid roller.

Meaning...... some maintenance required, and trouble free zero maintenance 50,000 mile service intervals are very unlikely.

Also, I just can’t imagine myself spending the $$$ on them.

 

[Dan64]

So....... if you’re using a cam/rocker combo that requires you to be at or near the upper ends of those limits...... you’re in the same range, wear and tear wise, as a milder solid roller.

Meaning...... some maintenance required, and trouble free zero maintenance 50,000 mile service intervals are very unlikely.

Also, I just can’t imagine myself spending the $$$ on them.

View attachment 883211

I agree ,the price is stupid. Hoping I don't need to go with them. With a lot of the other lifters being rated to 6500 but being reported to come up short of those numbers. I wasn't able to find out what the 270 stock springs are suppose to be rated to. Engine builder said he will check spring rate along with everything else in an attempt to get it all to play together . We did have a conversation about not chasing it if there is a real problem. I'll take the loss and change things up.

 

[PRHeads]

As with all of this stuff.....”it depends”....... lifters being “rated” to 6500 is somewhat meaningless.

They could or couldn’t get there depending on a myirad of other choices and components used.

The GM sbc “hot cam” for their zz4 motors runs easily to 6500 with the wimpy little beehive springs that go along with it.
It’s a factory engineeered system of parts made to work together.

Swap in something like a voodoo or XE cam...... it ain’t gonna be happy at 6500.

 

[PRHeads]

I can also add this...... over the last couple of years there have been a few brand x guys around here who had hyd roller cams in the motors that made pretty good power, although still rpm limited.
A few of them have experienced issues after allowing to motor to buzz up into the unhappy zone.
Collapsed lifters, pushrods falling out, v/p contact, keepers starting to pull through retainers, etc.
All of these motors had heads good enough that the power hadn’t peaked yet at the rpm the valvetrain gave up.
So, several had wanted it “fixed”.
We swapped them over to mild solid roller cams. End of problems.
Power was similar up to the point of the hyd lifter giving up, but the solids just hung on so much better........ usually about 800-1000rpm higher.
So, at like 64-6500rpm the motor would be up 30-40hp over what it was making at the point of the hyd lifters giving up(5700-6000).
When the lifters give up, the power curve falls off a cliff.
Many of those BB hyd roller combos just can’t get to 6500....... yet with the solid roller...... many times the power hasn’t really nosed over hard even at 67-6800.

In all fairness though, I’ve never tested anything with the $1000 hyd rollers.

The one local market where the hyd roller is really the right choice are BBC marine motors.
But it’s very rare that one of them gets very close to 6k(the out drives don’t like it).

 

[biomedtechguy]

All of these motors had heads good enough that the power hadn’t peaked yet at the rpm the valvetrain gave up.

I had a mish-mash of wrong parts and fasteners that was the shift mechanism that came with my car. I missed a shift and overrevved, and one of the hydraulic flat tappet lifters started ticking. After about a minute it pumped back up.
Similar thing happened again and this time it didn't "come back".
My lifters needed replacement.
Also, I noticed that right about the time my 440 6bbl with the 292/.509 cam started really coming on, it would fall on its face.
I suspected weak valve springs.
I pulled the heads to change the lifters and had the springs checked at my local engine builder's shop. I was so sure I needed new springs, I had already ordered them. Sure enough, the springs were crap, both opened and closed.
On went the new CompCams springs, and I also switched to 10° locks and retainers. New pushrods too, and the Comp lifters.
Broke in the lifters and after putting a few miles on it I let 'er rip...
WOW! I had a brand new engine! From that point through now, my 440 loves to, DEMANDS to be allowed to pull to 6,200 RPMs, and that has to be attributed to the cam mostly, with the 6bbl, and headers in support....
NONE of that AMAZING "newly discovered" power would have been realized without the new springs, and lifters to a degree.
Night and Day difference!

 

[Hemirunner]

I’ll just say this. If you’re gonna run a hydraulic roller lifter, you can’t afford to NOT buy the Morel. I won’t build a HR engine with any other lifter at this point. The headache isn’t worth it.

 

[bearman]

Thanks Dan for putting up this post and thanks everyone for your help. Some great input here and gives me things to think about.

 

[Dan64]

I’ll just say this. If you’re gonna run a hydraulic roller lifter, you can’t afford to NOT buy the Morel. I won’t build a HR engine with any other lifter at this point. The headache isn’t worth it.[/QUOTE I assume you mean the hi-rpm style morel correct ? vs. the street style.

 

[Hemirunner]

I assume you mean the hi-rpm style morel correct ? vs. the street style.

No. I did not use the short travel versions. I meant use the morel over a Comp or Crane cams or some other brand. The last set was used in a small block. We made 628hp at 6500rpm and it was still making power.

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

No. I did not use the short travel versions. I meant use the morel over a Comp or Crane cams or some other brand. The last set was used in a small block. We made 628hp at 6500rpm and it was still making power.

you were seeing decent RPM on your HR big mopars weren't ya?

 

[biomedtechguy]

you were seeing decent RPM on your HR big mopars weren't ya?

 

[Hemirunner]

you were seeing decent RPM on your HR big mopars weren't ya?

6500 on all of them as well. Most all of these big inch combos peak below that so there’s no point spinning them any higher. Damn tiny mopar heads!