I think something's wrong with the Boeing 737 Max 8
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Slap Stick
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Would you believe what a 757 and 767 pilot who has been flying for the airlines since the early 90s says?
66 Sat
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This was the whole article from the BBC. It didn't cut and paste properly from my phone. Now I realise this report has been issued by the Ethiopians, so of course is biased but it is food for thought. Personally I only fly top rated airlines from First World countries as I have the same trust issues as all you other guys, however to keep reading these almost racist comments that it's the fault of everybody but Boeing just got too much. Also, the fact that the planes have been grounded worldwide says something surely?
There's a lot of new tech finding it's way into cars too, and if the self steering or braking malfunctioned and sent the car off the road, and say it was my wife or mother driving, I think I'd be looking at the car manufacturer, not blaming my mum for not switching the system off in time.
The Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed last month nosedived several times before it hit the ground, a preliminary report has said.
Pilots "repeatedly" followed procedures recommended by Boeing before the crash, according to the first official report into the disaster.
Despite their efforts, pilots "were not able to control the aircraft", Transport Minister Dagmawit Moges said.
Flight ET302 crashed after take-off from Addis Ababa, killing 157 people.
It was the second crash of a Boeing 737 Max aircraft in five months.
Last October, Lion Air flight JT 610 crashed into the sea near Indonesia killing all 189 people on board.
The 737 Max family of aircraft was grounded following the Ethiopian Airlines crash, a move affecting more than 300 planes.
What did the report say about the cause of the crash?
The preliminary report did not attribute blame for the crash. But it says the crew were fully qualified to conduct the flight, and that they performed all the expected procedures correctly.
The report goes on to recommend that Boeing review the 737 Max's "flight control system related to flight controllability" and that aviation regulators ensure this is done before the aircraft goes back into the air.
Image copyright Getty Images
Crash investigators have focused their attention on the Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) - software designed to help prevent the 737 Max from stalling.
The software reacts when sensors in the nose of the aircraft show the jet is climbing at too steep an angle, which can cause a plane to stall.
The report does not mention the MCAS by name, but it does detail during the minutes after take off the problems the pilots were having in trying to control the aircraft's angle of flight.
At one point the captain called out three times "pull up", and seconds after instructed the first officer to tell Air Traffic Control that they had a flight control problem.
In a statement on Thursday, the chief executive of Ethiopian Airlines, Tewolde GebreMariam, said he was "very proud" of the pilots' "high level of professional performance".
"It was very unfortunate they could not recover the airplane from the persistence of nosediving," the airline said in a statement.
What happened to the Lion Air flight?
An investigation into the Lion Air flight suggested the system malfunctioned, and forced the plane's nose down more than 20 times before it crashed into the sea.
The preliminary report from Indonesian investigators found that a faulty sensor on the aircraft wrongly triggered MCAS without the pilots' knowledge.
Boeing has been working on an upgrade of the MCAS software since the Lion Air crash.
It has said the system can be disabled - allowing pilots to regain control if there appears to be a problem.
But the latest comments from Ethiopian officials suggest that pilots could not regain control, despite following procedures recommended by Boeing.
Analysis: What does the report mean for Boeing?
By Tom Burridge, BBC transport correspondent
Image copyright Getty Images
Image caption Hundreds of 737 Maxs are grounded worldwide
Two crashes, five months apart, with a total of 346 people dead.
Both preliminary crash reports suggest a new design to the 737 Max 8 malfunctioned, pushing each plane repeatedly into a nosedive.
One lawsuit has been filed. More are likely.
The suffering of those who've lost loved ones can't be quantified. But the commercial toll for the manufacturer and damage to its reputation, at this stage, can't be either.
Hundreds of 737 Maxs are grounded worldwide. Thousands of orders are, for now on ice, and some could even be in jeopardy.
The Max was Boeing's answer to Airbus' A320: a single-aisle, fuel-efficient short-haul plane.
But in the opinion of one experienced 737 pilot, the new anti-stall system, which was added to the aircraft and contributed to both crashes, was "flawed".
Boeing is working to fix it. It needs to get the aircraft certified as safe and back in the air as soon as it can.
Read more from Tom here.
What is Boeing doing improve the aircraft's safety?
In a statement on Thursday, Boeing said: "We will carefully review the AIB's preliminary report and will take any and all additional steps necessary to enhance the safety of our aircraft.
"To ensure unintended MCAS activation will not occur again, Boeing has developed and is planning to release a software update to MCAS and an associated comprehensive pilot training and supplementary education program for the 737 MAX."
The company said the update "adds additional layers of protection and will prevent erroneous data from causing MCAS activation. Flight crews will always have the ability to override MCAS and manually control the airplane".
Boeing has issued guidance to pilots on how to manage MCAS, and it plans to install an extra warning system on all 737 Max aircraft, which was previously an optional safety feature.
It is also revising pilot training to provide "enhanced understanding of the 737 Max" flight system and crew procedures.
The planemaker says the upgrades are not an admission that MCAS caused the crashes.
There's a lot of new tech finding it's way into cars too, and if the self steering or braking malfunctioned and sent the car off the road, and say it was my wife or mother driving, I think I'd be looking at the car manufacturer, not blaming my mum for not switching the system off in time.
The Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed last month nosedived several times before it hit the ground, a preliminary report has said.
Pilots "repeatedly" followed procedures recommended by Boeing before the crash, according to the first official report into the disaster.
Despite their efforts, pilots "were not able to control the aircraft", Transport Minister Dagmawit Moges said.
Flight ET302 crashed after take-off from Addis Ababa, killing 157 people.
It was the second crash of a Boeing 737 Max aircraft in five months.
Last October, Lion Air flight JT 610 crashed into the sea near Indonesia killing all 189 people on board.
- Who are the victims of crash?
- What went wrong with Boeing 737 Max?
- What do the 737 crashes mean for Boeing?
The 737 Max family of aircraft was grounded following the Ethiopian Airlines crash, a move affecting more than 300 planes.
What did the report say about the cause of the crash?
The preliminary report did not attribute blame for the crash. But it says the crew were fully qualified to conduct the flight, and that they performed all the expected procedures correctly.
The report goes on to recommend that Boeing review the 737 Max's "flight control system related to flight controllability" and that aviation regulators ensure this is done before the aircraft goes back into the air.
Image copyright Getty Images
Crash investigators have focused their attention on the Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) - software designed to help prevent the 737 Max from stalling.
The software reacts when sensors in the nose of the aircraft show the jet is climbing at too steep an angle, which can cause a plane to stall.
The report does not mention the MCAS by name, but it does detail during the minutes after take off the problems the pilots were having in trying to control the aircraft's angle of flight.
At one point the captain called out three times "pull up", and seconds after instructed the first officer to tell Air Traffic Control that they had a flight control problem.
In a statement on Thursday, the chief executive of Ethiopian Airlines, Tewolde GebreMariam, said he was "very proud" of the pilots' "high level of professional performance".
"It was very unfortunate they could not recover the airplane from the persistence of nosediving," the airline said in a statement.
What happened to the Lion Air flight?
An investigation into the Lion Air flight suggested the system malfunctioned, and forced the plane's nose down more than 20 times before it crashed into the sea.
The preliminary report from Indonesian investigators found that a faulty sensor on the aircraft wrongly triggered MCAS without the pilots' knowledge.
Boeing has been working on an upgrade of the MCAS software since the Lion Air crash.
It has said the system can be disabled - allowing pilots to regain control if there appears to be a problem.
But the latest comments from Ethiopian officials suggest that pilots could not regain control, despite following procedures recommended by Boeing.
Analysis: What does the report mean for Boeing?
By Tom Burridge, BBC transport correspondent
Image copyright Getty Images
Image caption Hundreds of 737 Maxs are grounded worldwide
Two crashes, five months apart, with a total of 346 people dead.
Both preliminary crash reports suggest a new design to the 737 Max 8 malfunctioned, pushing each plane repeatedly into a nosedive.
One lawsuit has been filed. More are likely.
The suffering of those who've lost loved ones can't be quantified. But the commercial toll for the manufacturer and damage to its reputation, at this stage, can't be either.
Hundreds of 737 Maxs are grounded worldwide. Thousands of orders are, for now on ice, and some could even be in jeopardy.
The Max was Boeing's answer to Airbus' A320: a single-aisle, fuel-efficient short-haul plane.
But in the opinion of one experienced 737 pilot, the new anti-stall system, which was added to the aircraft and contributed to both crashes, was "flawed".
Boeing is working to fix it. It needs to get the aircraft certified as safe and back in the air as soon as it can.
Read more from Tom here.
What is Boeing doing improve the aircraft's safety?
In a statement on Thursday, Boeing said: "We will carefully review the AIB's preliminary report and will take any and all additional steps necessary to enhance the safety of our aircraft.
"To ensure unintended MCAS activation will not occur again, Boeing has developed and is planning to release a software update to MCAS and an associated comprehensive pilot training and supplementary education program for the 737 MAX."
The company said the update "adds additional layers of protection and will prevent erroneous data from causing MCAS activation. Flight crews will always have the ability to override MCAS and manually control the airplane".
Boeing has issued guidance to pilots on how to manage MCAS, and it plans to install an extra warning system on all 737 Max aircraft, which was previously an optional safety feature.
It is also revising pilot training to provide "enhanced understanding of the 737 Max" flight system and crew procedures.
The planemaker says the upgrades are not an admission that MCAS caused the crashes.
Slap Stick
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Not an admission....so why fix the system?
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I was just thinking the same thing.
Crackedback
Well-Known Member
That is all legal stuff for the pending lawsuits. Never admit guilt even if you are holding the smoking gun!
Slap Stick
Well-Known Member
By paying a fine or fixing the known problem, etc you are admitting guilt by your actions no matter what you say.
Its legalese, but remember the same lawyers who don't admit guilt also use the phrase, "by your silence you agree or do not object".
Or as some would say......that's diiiiiiiiiifferent.
Its legalese, but remember the same lawyers who don't admit guilt also use the phrase, "by your silence you agree or do not object".
Or as some would say......that's diiiiiiiiiifferent.
Wingfoot
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Boeing's 737 MAX 8 isn’t just a computer bug.
It’s a scandal.
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Boeing says that the software fixes they're working on are to address the problems of "erroneous activation of the aircraft's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System)" https://www.cnet.com/news/boeing-73...090e536&bhid=20597523668340252653868782283375
They say the planes could be back in the air by July. I'm flying in June.
They say the planes could be back in the air by July. I'm flying in June.
69BBody
Well-Known Member
Boeing says that the software fixes they're working on are to address the problems of "erroneous activation of the aircraft's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System)" https://www.cnet.com/news/boeing-73...090e536&bhid=20597523668340252653868782283375
They say the planes could be back in the air by July. I'm flying in June.
Somewhere warm?
gtxracer
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Having worked at Boeing for almost 30 years and talking with former co-workers, July might be a bit optimistic...
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Well, agreed. Now I'm hearing that they probably won't be cleared to fly until 2020. Meanwhile, with the name 'Max' being tainted with a bad reputation, it seems that someone had the idea to rename the series. This undelivered plane destined for Ryan Air is now painted as 737-8200. Neither Boeing, nor Ryan Air which has 135 of the type on order have commented on the change.
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69a100
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Let’s not let any facts get in the way here fellas.
So many posts I could've quoted on this but, a lot of people that have posted on this are wrong. The plot thickens! This was in today's Trib.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/busi...0190924-75azg7xqmzcixbvddm5vxzztui-story.html
...and, from a slightly different angle, is this interesting article:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/amp29193334/boeing-737-max-corporate-governance/
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/amp29193334/boeing-737-max-corporate-governance/
coronet68mx
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Will it ever fly again ?
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Lots of fields are full of them. Even at the reduced build rate, they're still cranking out 42 of them each month.
Besides the lost revenue from the grounded fleet, each airline is faced with additional fuel costs by running older aircraft that weren't supposed to be used on certain routes after the new replacements arrived. And if the older planes were already disposed of, finding replacements won't always be possible.
As well, keeping the current grounded fleet in storage costs money too: airports have storage fees, maintenance is required whether the planes are in the air or not. For instance, WestJet has its fleet spread around several Canadian airports, the planes get regular servicing and the engines are run up every week. All while not producing income.
Besides the lost revenue from the grounded fleet, each airline is faced with additional fuel costs by running older aircraft that weren't supposed to be used on certain routes after the new replacements arrived. And if the older planes were already disposed of, finding replacements won't always be possible.
As well, keeping the current grounded fleet in storage costs money too: airports have storage fees, maintenance is required whether the planes are in the air or not. For instance, WestJet has its fleet spread around several Canadian airports, the planes get regular servicing and the engines are run up every week. All while not producing income.
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Slap Stick
Well-Known Member
Why don't they just build the plane the MAX is trying to emulate but can't?
The 757. Still a better plane than the 737. Faster, can climb to altitude without step climbing, uses less runway at a lower speed higher payload and more range.
The 757. Still a better plane than the 737. Faster, can climb to altitude without step climbing, uses less runway at a lower speed higher payload and more range.
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