K FRAME UP GRADE

[Cheapsunglasses]

Have you looked at what Chad Vetter did with his car?

I've seen a lot of "spirited discussion" on the question of reinforced k member vs tubular k member, and torsion bar vs coil over. Maybe one of you reinforced stock suspension guys should find out when Chad's next autocross event is, and be there.

I'm not knocking the reinforced stock suspension, especially for street use. If I had the extra time and was set up to weld, I would have gone the same route (as I originally intended). But I also think Chad knows what he's doing.

I’ll post this again, maybe you glossed over it

B Bodies and Road Courses - My Super Bee Setup

 

[JR_Charger]

I did look through and have it saved for future reference. Have you looked at what Chad Vetter did to his car?

 

[Cheapsunglasses]

If he pulled the torsion bars off his car, I don’t care about his car.

 

[JR_Charger]

He did a lot more than pull the torsion bars off. He built his own three link rear suspension, got the weight under 3000 lbs, moved the engine back, and beat an LS swapped Porsche 914 at autocross. The itty bitty, ultralight 914, but with power. Beaten at autocross with a 73 Charger. That is worthy of respect in my book.

I'll be keeping my torsion bars and leaf springs because ride quality is important to me on the 72, but I'd at least like to try a b-body with coilovers at some point.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

He did a lot more than pull the torsion bars off. He built his own three link rear suspension, got the weight under 3000 lbs, moved the engine back, and beat an LS swapped Porsche 914 at autocross. The itty bitty, ultralight 914, but with power. Beaten at autocross with a 73 Charger. That is worthy of respect in my book.

I'll be keeping my torsion bars and leaf springs because ride quality is important to me on the 72, but I'd at least like to try a b-body with coilovers at some point.

Couple things.. I have driven a couple cars with RMS Alterkation front ends.. I didn't push anywhere near the limit but I did notice problems which both cars shared..

1) Akerman angle was way off, Akerman is the angle that allows both tires to match the different diameter of a turning circle, the inner circle obviously is smaller than the outer circle, the steering needs to allow for this, the geometry is well known yet is completely wrong on the Alterkation... Why? My guess is it's built into the spindles which are designed for.... A Pinto.... When the Akerman is wrong & you turn one of the tires is forced to slip.. At low turn angles it's probably not to severe but where I initially noticed it I was in a parking lot... What happens is on a harder turn, like pulling into a parking space since the tires/steering linkage do not compensate for the dissimilar circles the tires begin the bind, the car will actually stop if you don't add throttle... At a point the tires bind as far as they an, then you actually feel the inner tire slip & step-over... Keep the steering at full lock & continue to turn & the process repeats... Sure, it only happens when you create certain conditions, very rare, you know, pulling into parking places is a rare occurrence...

Anyway, point is if they haven't corrected this what else has been missed...

2) Okay what else? well again your at or near full lock & you turn loose of the steering wheel... What happens next? Normally the steering wheel returns to center position... Well with the RMS Alterkation that's not the case, the steering stays at full lock.. Again the geometry isn't right....


Next point & maybe the 914 is better than others but often when Porsche's are converted to V8 power it effects the balance & handling... Does this 914 have a successful competition history? Or is it just another modified vehicle that hasn't proven it's engineering

 

[Cheapsunglasses]

Couple things.. I have driven a couple cars with RMS Alterkation front ends.. I didn't push anywhere near the limit but I did notice problems which both cars shared..

1) Akerman angle was way off, Akerman is the angle that allows both tires to match the different diameter of a turning circle, the inner circle obviously is smaller than the outer circle, the steering needs to allow for this, the geometry is well known yet is completely wrong on the Alterkation... Why? My guess is it's built into the spindles which are designed for.... A Pinto.... When the Akerman is wrong & you turn one of the tires is forced to slip.. At low turn angles it's probably not to severe but where I initially noticed it I was in a parking lot... What happens is on a harder turn, like pulling into a parking space since the tires/steering linkage do not compensate for the dissimilar circles the tires begin the bind, the car will actually stop if you don't add throttle... At a point the tires bind as far as they an, then you actually feel the inner tire slip & step-over... Keep the steering at full lock & continue to turn & the process repeats... Sure, it only happens when you create certain conditions, very rare, you know, pulling into parking places is a rare occurrence...

Anyway, point is if they haven't corrected this what else has been missed...

2) Okay what else? well again your at or near full lock & you turn loose of the steering wheel... What happens next? Normally the steering wheel returns to center position... Well with the RMS Alterkation that's not the case, the steering stays at full lock.. Again the geometry isn't right....


Next point & maybe the 914 is better than others but often when Porsche's are converted to V8 power it effects the balance & handling... Does this 914 have a successful competition history? Or is it just another modified vehicle that hasn't proven it's engineering

Yep, most aftermarket suspension are glorified pinto suspension, what works on a light small wheelbase car, doesn’t work on a heavy, big long wheelbase car.

Also, how many people know pacers have better suspension then pintos? Not that it really matters, because guess what pintos and pacers aren’t known for? PERFORMANCE!! They were econoboxes!

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Yep, most aftermarket suspension are glorified pinto suspension, what works on a light small wheelbase car, doesn’t work on a heavy, big long wheelbase car.

Also, how many people know pacers have better suspension then pintos? Not that it really matters, because guess what pintos and pacers aren’t known for? PERFORMANCE!! They were econoboxes!

Yup, no body advertises their suspension as Pinto, they call it Mustang II but the Pinto came first & the parts fit both so is it Mustang II or is it Pinto?????

 

[Cheapsunglasses]

Yup, no body advertises their suspension as Pinto, they call it Mustang II but the Pinto came first & the parts fit both so is it Mustang II or is it Pinto?????

Sorry let me rephrase it. Most aftermarket suspensions are glorified mustang II which is glorified pinto

 

[64fury74charger]

I guess I will bite. I am pretty sure lots of us can remember some years ago when one of the common things was putting the pinto suspension under the 50’s ford pick ups along with the chebby marble box motor and calling it the greatest thing ever done.
Obviously this was not generally done to make those tubs handle like a race car, and the companies making and selling some of these so-called suspension parts are only after the dollars and don’t know or care to have any knowledge about just how any steering or suspension system actually works.
In my world steering is right there with brakes and is a safety item. I have no issues with changing suspension, but at least we should be sure it is going to actually improve something enough to warrant the time and money involved.
Just my opinion and experience and that’s all.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Yup, Streetrodders where swapping IFS systems into their old streetrods that originally came with either a straight axle or if new enough to have early IFS those systems were pretty basic... Streetrodders were using whatever they could from donor vehicles... The are plenty of 67-69 Camaro clips, Chevelle clips, plenty of "Mustang II" clips then the Pacer & Volare clips... The guys in the know tended to use the Volare & Pacer because of the slightly bigger vehicle means the geometry is closer to the vehicle it's being swapped in to... But the Mustang II got used allot because it is fairly narrow allowing more room for tires without weird wheel offsets... But it's designed for a small light vehicle so the geometry is a poor match but it's still better than the original 1930's -1950's stuff...

However Mopar's torsion bar suspension was some of the best engineered stuff available in the 60's & 70's, just look at how many competition events Mopar preformed very well in...
So replacing it with Mustang II/Pinto doesn't make allot of sense to those of us who are more concerned with performance than change for the sake of change...

 

[64fury74charger]

Yup, Streetrodders where swapping IFS systems into their old streetrods that originally came with either a straight axle or if new enough to have early IFS those systems were pretty basic... Streetrodders were using whatever they could from donor vehicles... The are plenty of 67-69 Camaro clips, Chevelle clips, plenty of "Mustang II" clips then the Pacer & Volare clips... The guys in the know tended to use the Volare & Pacer because of the slightly bigger vehicle means the geometry is closer to the vehicle it's being swapped in to... But the Mustang II got used allot because it is fairly narrow allowing more room for tires without weird wheel offsets... But it's designed for a small light vehicle so the geometry is a poor match but it's still better than the original 1930's -1950's stuff...

However Mopar's torsion bar suspension was some of the best engineered stuff available in the 60's & 70's, just look at how many competition events Mopar preformed very well in...
So replacing it with Mustang II/Pinto doesn't make allot of sense to those of us who are more concerned with performance than change for the sake of change...

Good points and remember the aspen/volare had the horizontal torsion bars that had their own issues, great thread

 

[JR_Charger]

Couple things.. I have driven a couple cars with RMS Alterkation front ends.. I didn't push anywhere near the limit but I did notice problems which both cars shared..

1) Akerman angle was way off, Akerman is the angle that allows both tires to match the different diameter of a turning circle, the inner circle obviously is smaller than the outer circle, the steering needs to allow for this, the geometry is well known yet is completely wrong on the Alterkation... Why? My guess is it's built into the spindles which are designed for.... A Pinto.... When the Akerman is wrong & you turn one of the tires is forced to slip.. At low turn angles it's probably not to severe but where I initially noticed it I was in a parking lot... What happens is on a harder turn, like pulling into a parking space since the tires/steering linkage do not compensate for the dissimilar circles the tires begin the bind, the car will actually stop if you don't add throttle... At a point the tires bind as far as they an, then you actually feel the inner tire slip & step-over... Keep the steering at full lock & continue to turn & the process repeats... Sure, it only happens when you create certain conditions, very rare, you know, pulling into parking places is a rare occurrence...

Anyway, point is if they haven't corrected this what else has been missed...

2) Okay what else? well again your at or near full lock & you turn loose of the steering wheel... What happens next? Normally the steering wheel returns to center position... Well with the RMS Alterkation that's not the case, the steering stays at full lock.. Again the geometry isn't right....


Next point & maybe the 914 is better than others but often when Porsche's are converted to V8 power it effects the balance & handling... Does this 914 have a successful competition history? Or is it just another modified vehicle that hasn't proven it's engineering

I found a comment about the Mustang II spindles by DILLIGASDAVE in this thread -

"Traditionally "ideal" Ackerman happens if two imaginary lines each drawn through the center of the outer tie-rods & the center of the lower ball joints cross each other back at the center of the rear axle/housing. This is probably why Mustang II spindles have steering arms with a fairly aggressive Ackerman angle built into them because of the MII's short wheelbase."

I haven't had the chance to park next to a Mustang II but maybe it isn't too risky to assume the B body has a longer wheelbase. If Reilly Motorsports hasn't corrected for the Mustang II's spindle's Ackerman angle, then they've made a mistake they shouldn't have. It'd be nice if someone here with an alter-K-tion would chime in.

Here's the 914, you can judge for yourself. It was closer to the Charger than I remembered, their times are practically identical -

 

[JR_Charger]

Actually, the stock steering is not ball and trunnion, it is worm gear and sector. Secondly, there is a bolt in rack and pinion setup but it is horrible. The product is "Unisteer". I don't know if they still produce these units....they had terrible reviews.

Is the factory, or the Borgeson unit, at least a recirculating ball type?

 

[JR_Charger]

There's an even more extensive and "fiery but mostly peaceful" discussion of this topic on ForABodiesOnly There are some options I haven't seen mentioned here and was unaware of myself, such as the HDK coil over conversion or Bergman Auto Craft's factory style suspension kit.

No mention of problems with the Ackerman angle on the Alter-K-tion, but the full Pinto front suspension makes a guest appearance and is positively reviewed.

I went with the QA1 k member because I'd have to spend over 3 grand just to get 220 ran to my shop for welding - and then I still wouldn't have any welding tools, or know how to weld. Now I can take my time with the factory k member. It may even end up back on the car. QA1's paint rubs off fairly easy, I don't think it will hold up.

 

[70ChargerRT]

Is there anybody else that makes a tubular k-frame besides Q-a1? Their k-frame is over 20 years old and I just don’t like it. You can make your factory K-frame a lot stronger than the Q-a1 k-frame. I just don’t have time to do it but I would love to have a good strong tubular K- frame for my car if somebody was building one.

 

[Kern Dog]

The factory K member isn't that heavy.

This is heavier than stock since I already welded gussets around the steering box mounts and the LCA pin mounts. I figure this weighs maybe 1 1/2 lbs more than stock.

 

[JR_Charger]

@4:14 it says the alter-K-tion spindles are a modified design based on the Mustang II spindle.

 

[64fury74charger]

@4:14 it says the alter-K-tion spindles are a modified design based on the Mustang II spindle.

OK I will take another bite just because. Modified could be a fancy way of saying that the width between the spindles has been increased which means the track width will be closer to the car being modified. In other words the spindles are still the same.

I am not trying to start a fire, but sales is sales and word play really works great because at the end of the day the only goal is putting cash in the bank from making sales. Just my opinion and professional experience and that’s all. Buyer beware.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

M2 or Pinto suspension is easy and light. Great idea when replacing a solid axle in a old pickup truck, or anything else with a solid front axle. Then the aftermarket stepped in and made it lighter, excellent for drag racing.
Crown Vic front suspensions are now a better choice they are beefier enjoy improved engineering and better tolerances than a 70s shitbox car.
Let's look at Ford's track record on suspension work. The falcon and mustang they put the whole spring above the top of the suspension members, you could argue that it makes more of the spring unsprung weight, that is better, but not if it is a foot above the suspension. Spring pocket is completely made out of sheet metal with no boxing and very little triangulation, now your spring anchor point is moving around. Rear suspension on those cars uses a symmetrical spring like a 1800s wagon. So your axle is held in by a flimsy single spring section on each end. I would not brag about Ford designed suspensions.
Once you remove the torsion bars from the front suspension, you show your ignorance of a truly great design and all its virtues. A suspension that was designed to work in the real world with no compromise on packaging.

 

[fesser]

To be fair, Chad's car didn't beat the Porsche. Chad, driving his Mopar, beat the other driver driving his Porsche. So much of Autocross has to do with driver skill that I wouldn't think much of the results unless the driver's swapped cars and ran the course a few times again.