Kratom as a pain reliever and a safe pathway to reduce/eliminate opiate use

[steve from staten island]

Get the point. Just don't take to many aspirin if you like your stomach lining. Should aspirin be considered an illegal drug? Don't think so. Should Kratom be made available to just anyone? Maybe not. Should one be responsible for taking medication as prescribed? Will someone should be.

Im not sure of your point about aspirin. Any drug OTC or prescribed can be abused. There is no argument with that. I have no argument that someday maybe this Kratom might be used in some way for some sort of pain relief either.
While everyone is entitled to his or hers own opinions and certainly a discussion about this plant and its attributes is fine, to tout it or recommend it as alternative to prescribed drugs, to dismiss people in the medical community, pharmaceutical community, FDA, calling them "white coats" as if there incompetent corrupt people, is highly irresponsible.
To many people use ( and I'm not referring to the OP) use the internet to justify themselves when they have no creditable credentials or experience or knowledge.
Ive seen the exact same thing with cancer and while many are well meaning they have no business commenting on something they no nothing about. Often they create controversies that do not exist, my favorite being there is a hidden cure for cancer that the drug companies have but they with the medical community that deal with cancer do not want it released as they would go out of business. In other words its all about money.
Its bullshit phony hysteria and i resent it.
What i also resent if i can go on about cancer as a example is health facilities that advertise on TV as a option for treating cancer. They show healthy looking people, obviously actors simulating cancer patients and saying how when all hope was lost they came here and were cured
Some people in the medical community, some scientist's PHD's and such have studied for years and have made it there lives work to eradicate the sickness, addictions of others. I myself will listen to them until i hear otherwise about some plant sold in a head shop as being a miracle natural cure

 

[steve from staten island]

So glad you mentioned aspirin, because acetaminophen, aka Tylenol, has a toxic level of 6,000 to 7,000 mg/day and the way it kills is horrible. Basically it liquefies the liver.

Yes, abuse it, pop it like candy everyday for a long time and it will ruin your liver. Your point being exactly what?

 

[mopar 3 B]

Im not sure of your point about aspirin. Any drug OTC or prescribed can be abused. There is no argument with that. I have no argument that someday maybe this Kratom might be used in some way for some sort of pain relief either.
While everyone is entitled to his or hers own opinions and certainly a discussion about this plant and its attributes is fine, to tout it or recommend it as alternative to prescribed drugs, to dismiss people in the medical community, pharmaceutical community, FDA, calling them "white coats" as if there incompetent corrupt people, is highly irresponsible.
To many people use ( and I'm not referring to the OP) use the internet to justify themselves when they have no creditable credentials or experience or knowledge.
Ive seen the exact same thing with cancer and while many are well meaning they have no business commenting on something they no nothing about. Often they create controversies that do not exist, my favorite being there is a hidden cure for cancer that the drug companies have but they with the medical community that deal with cancer do not want it released as they would go out of business. In other words its all about money.
Its bullshit phony hysteria and i resent it.
What i also resent if i can go on about cancer as a example is health facilities that advertise on TV as a option for treating cancer. They show healthy looking people, obviously actors simulating cancer patients and saying how when all hope was lost they came here and were cured
Some people in the medical community, some scientist's PHD's and such have studied for years and have made it there lives work to eradicate the sickness, addictions of others. I myself will listen to them until i hear otherwise about some plant sold in a head shop as being a miracle natural cure

First off natural supplements can not be legally sold as miracle cures. The FDA and pharmaceuticals have seen to that. That doesn't say that tested over time home remedies do not work just because some lab has not tested them. One just needs to use some common since.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Yes, abuse it, pop it like candy everyday for a long time and it will ruin your liver. Your point being exactly what?

Anything can be abused and no lab or medical expert will ever change that. Its hard to fix stupid.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Your point being exactly what?

Here's my point, at this point.
My reply to the links you posted:

There are quite a few sources of information. Thanks for publishing some that you found.

Some phrases of yours that I recognize:

to tout it or recommend it as alternative to prescribed drugs, to dismiss people in the medical community, pharmaceutical community, FDA, calling them "white coats" as if there incompetent corrupt people, is highly irresponsible.

So now you are reaching back how many days to bludgeon me with my derogatory term "white coats"? It made the point that I meant to make, taken in context. It's clearly evident that your opinion is as far apart from mine as East is from West, yet your adversarial tone is really fatiguing and blatantly one sided. If my posts expose more people to do their own research on Kratom, that is my only intention. Obviously I am an advocate, not of Kratom, but for the people who have found relief and for them a better way of managing their pain, in many instances, recovering from exactly what the doctors with their 7 plus years of college and intern service as well as their special arenas of medicine, laboratories with all of their official certifications, pharmaceutical manufacturers with all of the proper permits, employing licenced pharmacists, and all of the above with the blessings of all relevant governmental agencies decided through their combined expertise and "wisdom" what was the proper treatment for their conditions.
What I find curious is your extreme adversarial approach to the topic, and multiple references to cancer "voodoo treatments" and your personal experience with that, that you have referenced a number of times, makes me think that may be part of the explanation for your vehement adversarial behavior.

 

[steve from staten island]

Here's my point, at this point.
My reply to the links you posted:

Some phrases of yours that I recognize:

So now you are reaching back how many days to bludgeon me with my derogatory term "white coats"? It made the point that I meant to make, taken in context. It's clearly evident that your opinion is as far apart from mine as East is from West, yet your adversarial tone is really fatiguing and blatantly one sided. If my posts expose more people to do their own research on Kratom, that is my only intention. Obviously I am an advocate, not of Kratom, but for the people who have found relief and for them a better way of managing their pain, in many instances, recovering from exactly what the doctors with their 7 plus years of college and intern service as well as their special arenas of medicine, laboratories with all of their official certifications, pharmaceutical manufacturers with all of the proper permits, employing licenced pharmacists, and all of the above with the blessings of all relevant governmental agencies decided through their combined expertise and "wisdom" what was the proper treatment for their conditions.
What I find curious is your extreme adversarial approach to the topic, and multiple references to cancer "voodoo treatments" and your personal experience with that, that you have referenced a number of times, makes me think that may be part of the explanation for your vehement adversarial behavior.

You need to go back and read your very first post on this subject. Thats my only reason for taking the position i have. Again if the chip was removed from your shoulder you would understand I'm not against this plant. What i dont care for is how you dismiss people with the proper backgrounds who actually do know something about medicine.
Many physicians now regard the use of another plant, which is marijuana for helping with the effects of some illness's, one of which is cancer. I have personal knowledge of that and also how much it helps and how much it does not.
I can tell you its not everything its cracked up to be, still for others it helps. The person that prescribes it is a doctor, the person that administers it and directs the patient on how to use it, is a licensed pharmacist and you dont obtain it in some head shop.
This is all lost on you as again you dismiss anyone who has busted there rear end studying, doing research, doing internships, making there lives work dedicated to curing and helping people.
Frankly i think your entire post is dangerous and irresponsible.
Its not so much your thoughts on this plant but the delivery method.
Again i ask for your credentials on health related subjects. Were did you receive your medical education, we're did you do your research and what is your actual verified experience as stated in post #6?
Once more i have no argument one way or another with this wonder plant you buy in some head shop which according to some may help with pain management in spite of its negative and potentially dangerous side effects. My distain is for this constant never ending paranoid evil government approach and the attack on the medical community because they dont share your opinion.
And BTW the seven years you mentioned about doctors, well that again is being dismissive.
For physicians, especially ones who specialize its college with a major in he sciences or bio, four years of med school, your boards of course. Two or more years of a residency and then a fellowship for two or more years. All this time its studying, do research, dedicating your entire life to medicine and you merely call them "white coats". You can have the last word, the subject is closed for me, let the good members here conclude there own evaluations.

 

[biomedtechguy]

United States federal agency gives $3.5 M grant to University of Florida to study Kratom.
https://m.ufhealth.org/news/2018/uf...35-million-nida-grant-bolster-kratom-research
Here's another example of someone who got their life back because of Kratom:
https://www.inverse.com/article/45966-kratom-what-is-it-and-why-its-controversial
From the article:
She was just 27 and had been diagnosed with lupus. Life was hard for her — recurring infections, fainting, rashes, and searing pain throughout her body — but matters would get worse for the stay-at-home mother of two.
Over the next few years, DeMott was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, osteoarthritis, and Sjogren’s syndrome, each of which brought even more pain and discomfort. “I was unable to get dressed, brush my teeth, or take a shower in the same hour,” DeMott tells Inverse. “Getting dressed consisted of putting on clean pajamas. I had to use a cane to walk and get around.”
Throughout this time, she took an extensive daily cocktail of 24 medications — including morphine and oxycodone for pain and benzodiazepines for anxiety — to treat the physical torment that held her back from leading a normal life. “Even with all this stuff, I still had no quality of life,” she says. She was still house-ridden. But where modern medicine fell short, alternative medicine offered hope. To get her life back, she turned to a little-understood herb from Southeast Asia that is currently legal but may not remain so for long.
“I would be lucky if I could make it from my bed to the couch, and I just wasn’t very present in my kids’ lives,” she says.

DeMott attempted suicide in 2016, at which point it became clear that something desperately needed to change. A friend from her chronic pain support group on Facebook introduced her to kratom, and the decision to try it, she says, changed her life.
DeMott’s doctors are astounded at her improvement since she started taking kratom two years ago. With their blessing, she’s gone completely off opioids and benzodiazepines. She’s even stepping down the steroidal anti-inflammatories she takes for lupus. “They were 100 percent supportive,” she says. “They were really happy to hear that I found something more along the lines of an herbal supplement instead of taking all these powerful narcotics.”
LOTS of information in this article, which strains of Kratom are better for pain relief, what their strongest affects are, where to buy it, etc
https://nootroholic.com/strongest-kratom

 

[funknut]

I have no doubt of the life-changing potential of treatments outside the 'mainstream' of current medical standards of care here in the U.S. That sounds like a great story of success from a person that had exhausted all other options and carefully weighed her alternatives and potential risks.

I personally know someone that was suffering from a drug-resistant infection and had exhausted every available antibiotic. Rather than give up and resign himself to a gruesome end, he and his wife flew to Georgia (the one in Eastern Europe) for bacteriophage therapy and his infection was cured in under a week.

https://www.statnews.com/2018/06/21/first-phage-therapy-center-in-us/

Many have known of the amazing potential of medical marijuana for decades and it's only been the last few years that it has started to gain acceptance in U.S. medical circles.

The U.S. medical machine has done, does and will continue to do, incredible things. Modern drug companies are saving millions of lives every year and increasing the quality of life for billions of others. But let's not forget that there are many forces at play. The medical industry is getting more and more risk-averse with the potential for career-ending litigation. For most people, the insurance companies are deciding what treatments they are able to have since care can be so prohibitively expensive to do privately. Doctors are being pressured more and more to make conservative decisions.

It is not a slight against doctors for people to seek out alternative care options any more than it would be to go to a chiropractor vs. an orthopedic surgeon. We are well past the days when doctors were the unquestioned oracles of all health knowledge. There are simply too many things that a single doctor can be an expert on.

It's not an either-or proposition. Modern medicine is a very important piece to the puzzle, but by itself it's not the complete picture.

 

[biomedtechguy]

It is not a slight against doctors for people to seek out alternative care options any more than it would be to go to a chiropractor vs. an orthopedic surgeon. We are well past the days when doctors were the unquestioned oracles of all health knowledge.

That was my point. My scathing comments about "official" this and "licensed" that, and ESPECIALLY "government approved" as the end all be all ONLY solutions to medical issues was ratcheted up in the face of a very adversarial position taken to counter what I was presenting, AND because it is the opioid medication and promotion of its use that got MANY of those patients in trouble to begin with!

 

[Gone]

I have no doubt of the life-changing potential of treatments outside the 'mainstream' of current medical standards of care here in the U.S. That sounds like a great story of success from a person that had exhausted all other options and carefully weighed her alternatives and potential risks.

I personally know someone that was suffering from a drug-resistant infection and had exhausted every available antibiotic. Rather than give up and resign himself to a gruesome end, he and his wife flew to Georgia (the one in Eastern Europe) for bacteriophage therapy and his infection was cured in under a week.

https://www.statnews.com/2018/06/21/first-phage-therapy-center-in-us/

Many have known of the amazing potential of medical marijuana for decades and it's only been the last few years that it has started to gain acceptance in U.S. medical circles.

The U.S. medical machine has done, does and will continue to do, incredible things. Modern drug companies are saving millions of lives every year and increasing the quality of life for billions of others. But let's not forget that there are many forces at play. The medical industry is getting more and more risk-averse with the potential for career-ending litigation. For most people, the insurance companies are deciding what treatments they are able to have since care can be so prohibitively expensive to do privately. Doctors are being pressured more and more to make conservative decisions.

It is not a slight against doctors for people to seek out alternative care options any more than it would be to go to a chiropractor vs. an orthopedic surgeon. We are well past the days when doctors were the unquestioned oracles of all health knowledge. There are simply too many things that a single doctor can be an expert on.

It's not an either-or proposition. Modern medicine is a very important piece to the puzzle, but by itself it's not the complete picture.

Well said, which is what Bio's point was. However, the FDA obviously looks at it differently:

https://healthimpactnews.com/2018/f...reatening-remedies-for-millions-of-americans/

 

[biomedtechguy]

Well said, which is what Bio's point was. However, the FDA obviously looks at it differently:

https://healthimpactnews.com/2018/f...reatening-remedies-for-millions-of-americans/

If they move forward with enforcement, they are going to be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people, and the suffering of tens of thousands of people.

 

[steve from staten island]

That was my point. My scathing comments about "official" this and "licensed" that, and ESPECIALLY "government approved" as the end all be all ONLY solutions to medical issues was ratcheted up in the face of a very adversarial position taken to counter what I was presenting, AND because it is the opioid medication and promotion of its use that got MANY of those patients in trouble to begin with!

Hogwash !!!! You presented yourself as conducting research, having experience and you again dismissed the medical community. Its all there in your first postings and thats my complaint.
You present no long term studies on Kratom, because you dont have any long term studies !
You talk about research. Have you done actual research or looked it up on line? Big difference!
I was done with this thread until i read "very adversarial position to counter what i was presenting" There is no adversarial position, the only position is you cannot back up your claims other than to post links.
This is not politics or your interpretation of our Constitution, this is peoples health and well being were talking about!!!
And now I'm losing my temper .
How dare you say things against people in the medical field or people with the credentials who offer caution on using this substance.
Sure some people react and have good results but that does not mean all will and again with out the proper research by qualified people and your not one do not come off as a expert, its wrong and dangerous.
Again and not meaning to put you down but it has to be said.
You have no research, no filed papers, no patients, no experience, no degree as a health care professional, no nothing except your opinions based on possibly talking to people or using the substance yourself
Tell me your medical background.
Tell me your studies and research you did and documented yourself?
Tell me your personal findings and who your affiliated with. What hospital, what university, what outreach program
Tell me and then i will admit i am out of line
The internet were one click of the keyboard and everybody is a expert in everything.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I don't claim to be an expert.
I am going to focus all future posts strictly on additional information about Kratom and answer any questions that may come up about it to my best ability.
I regret the loggerheads that you and I have reached over it, but I am not going to reply to those kind of comments moving forward.

 

[steve from staten island]

I don't claim to be an expert.
I am going to focus all future posts strictly on additional information about Kratom and answer any questions that may come up about it to my best ability.
I regret the loggerheads that you and I have reached over it, but I am not going to reply to those kind of comments moving forward.

No problem, discuss it, your opinions are your right of course. Maybe someday this drug will be given under the supervision of medical experts, maybe it will not and discovered its dangerous, i have no idea.
My objections were only to the way it was presented. Ive been down similar paths with issues pertaining to cancer and its treatment
In the meantime i support,respect and admire those in the medical communities who have made it there lives goal to healing people and those who research diseases trying to find cures

 

[Slap Stick]

Problem is these same govt experts said the opioid based drugs are safe.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Problem is these same govt experts said the opioid based drugs are safe.

The point I've made throughout this thread.

 

[Slap Stick]

Sometimes ya gotta spell it out plainly....and sometimes it still doesn't work.

 

[steve from staten island]

Problem is these same govt experts said the opioid based drugs are safe.

They are dangerous when used incorrectly outside the direction of a doctor. I myself will listen to what the Mayo clinic advises
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases.../expert-answers/what-are-opioids/faq-20381270

 

[GetX'd]

You guys have too much time on your hands........

 

[Kern Dog]

SOME people seem either too slow or just ignorant. Post after post, they do not understand what people are saying.
The way I see it, it is a common belief that the Doctor and patient relationship has itself been poisoned by both the insurance industry and the Drug companies. We may wince at the thought but what are the chances that Doctors are given special incentives to push/prescribe certain drugs? What if those drugs are not only NOT what the patient needs but possibly harmful to their physical or mental health?
For years I have heard Potheads brag about the medicinal aspects of Marijuana. I dismissed it until I grew up and took notice. Drug companies make NOTHING from plants that people can grow in their backyard. Of COURSE they are eager to dismiss whatever medical benefits these natural remedies may provide.