Lash settings with unknown HP cam, solid rollers and ported.

[sputnik 440]

When I bought this '67 Satellite, the engine, 440 HP was boosted to 560HP. I need to adjust the valves and have read a dozen articles on how to do it. EOIC and such. Indeed, I can measure the lash and set the rockers, but I don't have the foggiest idea of where to set them. 6 of the 8 intakes/exhaust sets were 0 to .002, one of the other 2 were at .006 and the the last set was .024 - .030. I need to find out where would be a good setting to start with. All the measurements I took were with the engine cold. The gap will only get smaller when I go to set them with a warmed up engine. The cam is a street/racing cam but that is all I know. I do not want to take the engine out just to see what the cam is. I am satisfied that I can "tune it in" once I find a starting place. I know I don't want to go over and have too much slop, but I can't keep them where they are at now. Any advice? I am not sure of the rpm range I should consider. I think 2000 to 4000 is a good range for this set up. Comments? It has a 3.73 rear end and is 4 speed. Any advice on what the range would be for a set up like that. I say this because the settings for the same cam are slightly different on paper. As usual, thank you for your inputs.
Capt Jim

 

[Kern Dog]

The Mopar Performance solid flat tappet cams had a .028 INT .032 EXH lash, sorta wide in my opinion but that is what I adjusted mine to. The Lunati solid I pulled out had .016 INT .018 EXH. With aluminum heads, you set the lash .006 tighter if setting lash on a cold engine. This allows the lash to grow once the engine warms up.

 

[sputnik 440]

Thanks for those setting Kern Dog. I'm pretty sure the cam are a little hotter flat tappet cams. I think the lash won't be around the .030". That Lunati solid is just about where I was thinking of setting up on a cold start. Then after it warms up, they should be around .014 and .015 I'll just have to listen and observe from there until someone can tell me what cam was put into this engine.

No one has ever heard of someone setting up 0 to .002 on lash have they? Is there anyway to trace back on the used crate engines to find out what they did to the cams? Can you do it by some registry? Just groping. Take care ya'll.

 

[lewtot184]

this is what i'd do: figure .010" clearance where the wheel meets the lobe, multiply the .010" by the rocker ratio and use that as a minimum clearance. or, you can set them at .022" at the valve, which will be .015" at the lobe with a 1.5 rocker, which will be very safe and you can tune from there.

 

[sputnik 440]

That sounds safe for start up. I thank you. Question: Assuming the engine builder set the valves upon assembly, or before turning the car over to the owner, how the heck does 6 sets of intake/exhaust go to 0.00 - .002"? Shouldn't they get looser with wear or seating of the push rods?

 

[lewtot184]

That sounds safe for start up. I thank you. Question: Assuming the engine builder set the valves upon assembly, or before turning the car over to the owner, how the heck does 6 sets of intake/exhaust go to 0.00 - .002"? Shouldn't they get looser with wear or seating of the push rods?

pilot error?

 

[Cranky]

That sounds safe for start up. I thank you. Question: Assuming the engine builder set the valves upon assembly, or before turning the car over to the owner, how the heck does 6 sets of intake/exhaust go to 0.00 - .002"? Shouldn't they get looser with wear or seating of the push rods?

They shouldn't wear that much in a short period of time unless something is wrong. How much run time does this engine have? The down side to being too tight besides power loss once the engine warms up is a burned valve or seat. Get things adjusted and then do a compression test. If you have cylinders that are more than 10% difference, squirt some oil into the low cylinder/s and see if the PSI comes up. If it doesn't, start looking at the valves. If the engine is fairly fresh and has very little run time on it, you're probably ok

 

[sputnik 440]

They shouldn't wear that much in a short period of time unless something is wrong. How much run time does this engine have? The down side to being too tight besides power loss once the engine warms up is a burned valve or seat. Get things adjusted and then do a compression test. If you have cylinders that are more than 10% difference, squirt some oil into the low cylinder/s and see if the PSI comes up. If it doesn't, start looking at the valves. If the engine is fairly fresh and has very little run time on it, you're probably ok

Run time is right at 2,000 miles. I have not noticed a loss of power through any part of the rpm range. Although, I have not had 560 horses to pull me around these hills and curves in the Ozarks. I do know that in 2nd and 3rd gears, the power will abruptly fall (valves float) off at a little less than "red line" rpms (say around 5200). I'm thinking this has to do with a "governor" in the MSD ignition. I have to read more on that. I thank you for your comments.

 

[Kern Dog]

I wanted to mess with lash settings with the Lunati to see if I could gain some driveability with it. I thought of opening up the lash to make the cam act "smaller" but was advised against it. The belief was that since all cams have an opening and closing ramp, a deviation from the lash specification can bypass these ramps at some amount. The result could be early cam or lifter failure. Jim LaRoy said that going up to .004 over or under the suggested spec was okay. A guy at Lunati tech agreed.

 

[sputnik 440]

That coincides with everything I have read. Consensuses is .002 - .006 is okay. Right now I just got to see about the one set, #4, will not go to zero lash and I am out of adjuster nut. Guess that is the project for today, Waiting for a better solution than B-12, motor flush and engine treatment. Anyone use, or suggest, something like aerokroil, the oil that creeps. This stuff loosens up the unthinkable. I don't think it will screw up the oil with a small squirt. What is strange, to me, is that what ever caused the lifters to stop short of returning to zero is on both the intake and the exhaust, unless heat build up effected both valves. Any thoughts?

 

[sputnik 440]

Thanks to all on this thread. Your knowledge and help convinced me to do the following. Went ahead and pulled the intake. Rotated the engine, inspected the lifts on #4, they all seemed to work, so I thought well maybe the lifter had a hole in it. Pulled the push rod and bingo. The tip of the rod was gone! Looked in the top of the lifter and and there was the tip of the rod, all busted into little pieces. That was on the intake, looked at the exhaust and same thing. Went to O'Reily's to get a new set of 16 and they did not have them. They have to be special ordered from Kingston and they are closed on Sat. These are Proform rockers and rods. $142.00 if they can get them. I don't like what I saw and can't explain it, so I am going to look at replacing the whole set with some other make. Any suggestions on the best ones to get, and then the most bang for the buck ones?

 

[Pysyko]

Hey Sputnik 440!
Sorry you're having trouble...
I don't want to steer you wrong, it's been quite awhile since I've been in an engine.

But I would think perhaps getting a pair of those adjustable pushrods...
Then adjust the length so you have proper rocker pushrod geometry.
Checking pushrods they may be called.

That way you could order or make your own pushrods the exact legnth you need.
I know we like to get them fixed and running... But with a little extra effort, you may find some hidden horsepower by getting all you can from the valve train.

If I remember, Comp Cams had articles about everything camshaft related...
I'm sure they still do, probably more so...
I haven't done many perf builds, but I've always liked Comp cams products & support.

Also, regarding what you found for lash... You don't know who set them, if he knew how, maybe he had a bad day... Some guys get funny, one of my coworkers use to say "I set em tight". I would ask why didn't he set them to spec? These were dealership rebuilt Diesel engines... Stepped feeler gauges are handy...

Finally (I know I talk too much...) I haven't got my car together to try this yet...
But I had a friend with a Hemi Roadrunner, and he swore he made power setting lash with a dial indicator... I suppose it couldn't hurt...
But hard to do running lol!

Good luck with your car bud!
Happy Easter everybody!!

 

[sputnik 440]

Here is what I am dealing with. These are Proform pushrods for the rockers that are on the 440. You can see that the intake rod got crushed against the hydraulic lifter. The exhaust rod did the same. I suspect I have another exact problem on another cylinder because the lash is .006 and .010 on each rod. Problem is that I can only find these "cupped" rods from Jegs and Northern and Keystone. They are special order and take 2-3 weeks at best. I thought pushrods were solid. Just my feeling. Why are they hollow? Certainly not for weight reduction I would think. Cooling? Or just a crappy weak design?
I have little experience with a HP engine. I have restored Alfa Romeos for years. Got out of those and wanted a muscle car. If it wasn't for all of the members on this terrific board, I'd be on my own and learning on the job and by trial and error. The confidence I get from you members makes me comfortable in tearing into the big stuff. I bow to you and thank you for the learning experiences.
Here are photos of the rod. The other rod is actually worse, it is worn "crushed" down to the rod. The tip is totally gone. Amazing that the lifter seems to be untouched. The metal "filings" were in the "cup" on top. I simply vacuumed it out. The lifter moves freely. Should I remove them and inspect them? Is that an easy thing to do? Any precautions?

 

[Pysyko]

Hello...
Dang, we are gonna need to think this out...
The whole reason behind hydraulic lifters is so you have no lash...
Maybe the valve lash was adjusted without the lifters being pumped up...
When the lifters got oil they pumped up, took up all the lash, and wrecked the pushrods.
I worry that you may even have a flat cam...
If the pressure was enough to collapse the pushrod tip...
Imagine the pressure on the cam lobes...
Those type pushrods should be common...
They are cupped on one end for adjustable rockers...
Are you sure you have hydraulic lifters?
I'm not trying to be a smart a55 or anything...
I just want to help you get your engine running with the least headache...
Maybe someone more current will answer...
The hollow pushrods are for lubrication...
I'm just curious about the pushrods & adjustable valve train...
I think you should pull the lifters, keep them in order, don't mix up the parts.
Keep all of #1 with number one, #2 with number two and so on.
This will help when diagnosing, and in case you reuse parts they can go back in the correct place.
Maybe someone used the adjustable rockers on a hydraulic cam.
If they set lash like a solid cam, when the lifters pumped up, they would be much too tight...and perhaps cause the failure...
I'm only grasping at pushrods here...
If you could show us a picture of the lifters, and the adjustable rockers, maybe we can narrow things down...
At least these days, these cars are not usually our daily drivers...
I remember the late night marathons, trying to get my car running again to get to work on Monday!!
Let's slow down, make a correct diagnosis, flush the engine as best you can, and put it back together so it's ripping up the street again!!
I'm sure after the Easter suppers and gathering are all done, there will be
plenty of fellow Mopar folks with current experience to help out!
Don't get too discouraged... It's an engine, and between all of us here, we will get it fixed.
Sorry I'm not much help...
talk to you soon!

 

[coloradodave]

Cup and ball pushrods are available from almost all the cam makers in any length you specify, singly or in sets. You might get faster service from: http://mantonpushrods.com/ I've used them and they're very easy to work with. The lifters just pull out by hand, but do be sure to keep them in order. A strong magnet will help if they stick in the bores a bit. Check the bottom of the lifter with a steel straight edge to make sure that it is slightly convex. And, check the cam lobes with a strong light to make sure they're not damaged. Hopefully, it was just a case of misadjustment that caused the damage.

 

[sputnik 440]

..dave, thanks for the mantonpushrod lead. I'll check it out. I cancelled my order from Jegs. I'm not sure on the convex bottom, but I did examine several and they showed no sign of wear. I also examined half the lobes, especially the ones related to the worst wear on the pushrods and those being the ones most out of 0 lash. All lobes look intact with no signs of unusual wear of flattening.
I am concerned about one thing. Because of the filings that came from the pushrods, do you think I should take the lifters apart and clean them. Not sure I want to , but if that is something that can go wrong, I'll do it. Now here is something else, I don't think I have any pushrods that do not show wear on the ball. Some worse than others. It looks as if the ball (a different material than the tube) wore down, in some cases there were ragged chips off the flattened edge, and in half the cases the rod was worn down around what was left of the ball. As though the ball did not fit the radius in the top of the lifter, or the angle of the rod caused the sidewall to wear down. All the cups on the top of the rod looked ok, but the ball on the adjuster was flattened or showed signs of wear in over half the adjusters. The other half looked untouched.
I know how much time this is taking me and I feel a bit guilty of soliciting all of your comments and advise. ...Pysyko, thank you for your interest. I took some more photos at your request. Let me know if more help. I don't know how many I am allowed to put on one reply, but I guess I'll find out.
Just one or tow more observations. I am out of adjuster threads at 0 lash. Either that is due to wear, or due to the pushrods being too short to begin with. One more, look at the cone shape on the top of the lifter. I believe it was designed that way so there would be no interference and subsequent wear. Correct? I don't think it wore that way from the angle the rod takes to enter it.???
Finally, while I had this engine down to camshaft, I looked for some nomenclature to determine what it was I had with out having to pull the engine just to read the end of the shaft. The grind showed.......CWC EP45 I found CWC but I have found nothing on the EP 45. Any ideas? Maybe I'll start with a new topic.

 

[coloradodave]

It looks like your pushrods may be too short. I would recommend ordering a pushrod length checker like this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-9006/overview/ so that you can accurately determine the exact length rods you need. I would then order a complete new set of adjusters for your rocker arms. I can't see any 'silver' floating in the oil present in the valley, so I think I would remove them and just liberally spray the tops of the lifters with brakekleen, then hit them with compressed air. Directions for measuring the pushrod lengths are plentiful on the web. Use a good assembly lube when you reinstall the lifters and pushrods. Check the condition of the threads inside your rockers to make sure they haven't galled. I use a little anti-seize when installing the adjusters into the rockers. Put the lifters into a can of oil to soak for a while before installing them in the motor.
Once you have the new parts in hand, pull all the spark plugs and use a socket (1 1/4") and bar to turn the motor until you see the lifters for #1 cylinder are on the baseheel of the cam and the timing mark is aligned with '0' on the timing tab. Make sure ALL the adjusters are backed almost completely out of the rockers before installing the rocker arm assemblies. Now install the pushrods for #1 cylinder and turn the adjusters down until the point that there is no up and down slack. With the manifold off, you can easily twist the pushrod between your thumb and index finger and get a feel for when there is a bit of resistance to turning. That point is zero preload. I recommend then turning the adjuster an additional 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn tighter. Now hold the adjuster in place and tighten the locking nut.
Next, you want to turn the motor clockwise, 90* (1/4 of a revolution), and repeat the same procedure on #8 cylinder, the next one in the firing order. Continue turning the motor 90*and adjusting the next cylinder in the firing order until you're done. A timing tape makes it easier to see the 90* intervals (I cut the top off an old distributor cap and just watch the rotor as it moves inline with the next cylinder to fire.) Re-install the intake manifold, add fresh oil and a filter and hopefully you'll be on the road.
**Make sure that when you install the rocker shafts that the oiling holes face down and toward the outside of the heads**
BTW, you mentioned the angle of the pushrods; do the old pushrods have any scrapes where they pass through the heads? Pictures?

 

[Pysyko]

Hey again...
I really think the valves were adjusted prior to engine start up.
But adjusted like a solid lifter, when it really was hydraulic.
If the push rods were too short, they would have fallen out, lifter could come out of the bore, oil pressure goes to zero...

The wear on the adjusters & the broken push rods to me suggest the lash was non existent. And when the lifters pumped up, there was no room for the tight pushrods... I'm sure the only reason the damage isn't worse is the engine was shut down.
I am in no way trying to be combative...
I truly just want to help.
The reason I want to be cautious with info is because I haven't worked on one for some time..., but have done a few RB engines.
I'm retired early after being injured in a motorcycle accident.
The title re solid rollers and the pictures etc...is a clue...
It almost looks like a newly installed adjustable rocker set ,installed incorrectly, or at least adjusted incorrectly.
I don't know how the engine even ran, with no lash the valves are probably off the seat. Did the engine run? If so, how long before shut down? I'm thinking only seconds...
And the ref to solid rollers makes me think that someone mistakenly set the valve lash as if they were solid lifters, but they were hydraulic, and there was no room for the pushrods once the lifters filled. Also another clue is that all the threads of the adjusters were used to set the initial lash.
Pleas note, I am not implying anything, I just want to help.
I understand that the Internet opens you up to ridicule.
That's not what I'm doing...
Also, you don't want to use any parts that are flaking, or even possibly damaged...
And if you clean the lifters one at a time, it could be done... Better safe than sorry, especially with loose shavings inside an engine. The filter will catch them, but they still need to make it to the pan...
I am concerned about the cam as well... On initial startup you need the lifters to spin in the bore immediately or risk a flat lobe. I don't think many lifters we're spinning. But maybe the engine didn't run long?
FYI the lobes on the cam are ground in a way that that cause the lifters to spin in their bore.
It's so important, it's built in.
Ok, best of luck!!

 

[Bigal75]

Is it normal that the adjuster bolt looks bottomed out?

 

[coloradodave]

The REASON that I said that the pushrods MAY be too short is because of the amount of threads showing under the rocker arms. To clarify what type of lifters you have (At least we DO know that they're NOT roller lifters...lol) remove the snap ring from one of the lifters, turn it upside down on a rag and see what falls out. A solid lifter will have only a cup portion that will not compress; that is, the cup sits on a shelf and the snap ring holds it in place. Hopefully, you've figured this all out by now and the motor is running fine. Good luck...